Project Bone Maro 2000 Z28
#71
04-05-2011, 10:31 AM
Well the blower motor can be removed without removing the entire dash. If the cowl has not been removed while the car has been driven then there should be little to no debris in the air passages so the fins of both the evaporator and heater core will still be clean.
Yes you are going to the extreme of extremes here on this car. Most people doing a concorse restoration would not be going to the extreme you are going with right now. I would just hate to see this nice car get scrapped because of the daunting financial burden it would put on you if you replace the entirety of every system with new parts over the failure of one small component.
The 4th gen Camaros are much better built than the pervious generations and time will tell how they stand up to the 5th gens. This is a car that was built to last and putting 200K on the clock with little to no major problems is about the norm. 3rd Gens got about 80K before they needed a trans, 2nd gens, like most cars from the 70's were about used up by 100K and same with the 1st gens.
If you want to replace everything it is your call. It is not necessary and in my opinion (yes I know about opinions) a waste of money that can be spent on other goodies to make the car drive and handle the way you want.
Massey
Yes you are going to the extreme of extremes here on this car. Most people doing a concorse restoration would not be going to the extreme you are going with right now. I would just hate to see this nice car get scrapped because of the daunting financial burden it would put on you if you replace the entirety of every system with new parts over the failure of one small component.
The 4th gen Camaros are much better built than the pervious generations and time will tell how they stand up to the 5th gens. This is a car that was built to last and putting 200K on the clock with little to no major problems is about the norm. 3rd Gens got about 80K before they needed a trans, 2nd gens, like most cars from the 70's were about used up by 100K and same with the 1st gens.
If you want to replace everything it is your call. It is not necessary and in my opinion (yes I know about opinions) a waste of money that can be spent on other goodies to make the car drive and handle the way you want.
Massey
#72
04-05-2011, 02:27 PM
It uses R134a. All automotive A/C systems sold in the US and Canada had to use R134a by the 1996 model year.
What parts are you needing? 99% of any mechanical part can be had through your local auto part store for a reasonable fee, body parts are mostly available from GM and reproduction. Classic Industries has quite a few interior and body parts. Your local friendly wrecking yard should still have some of these cars sitting in the yard (I know all my local yards keep a few of these around). Interior things like seats and what have you are prolly gonna need the attention of an apholstory shop since, yes the car is too old for GM and too new for resto shops.
Massey
What parts are you needing? 99% of any mechanical part can be had through your local auto part store for a reasonable fee, body parts are mostly available from GM and reproduction. Classic Industries has quite a few interior and body parts. Your local friendly wrecking yard should still have some of these cars sitting in the yard (I know all my local yards keep a few of these around). Interior things like seats and what have you are prolly gonna need the attention of an apholstory shop since, yes the car is too old for GM and too new for resto shops.
Massey
#73
04-05-2011, 03:25 PM
As far as I know the oriface tube does not come with any of the other parts but it is a cheap part. I still think you are wasting money on the Condenser, Heater core and Evaproator if they are not leaking or damaged in any way.
Compressor: $242.99 With Clutch
Murray 67288 - Reman Gm V7 Compressor W/ Clutch | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Reciever/Dryer: $85.99 With hose.
Murray 33157 - Accumulator W/ Hose | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Oriface Tube: $1.99
Murray 38638 - Black(Oe Red) Orifice Tube 1 Pkg | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Blower Motor: $39.99
VDO PM3799 - Blower Motor | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Pressure Hose: $104.99
Murray 56650 - Discharge & Suction Line Hose Assembly | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Suction Hose: (part of the reciever/Drier)
With the parts I have listed here I get $475.95 plus your state's taxes. All this can be replaced with out removing the dash. You will have to go under the car to get the compressor out but the rest can be easily gotten to from the top with basic tools. Your local GM dealer or A/C shop can flush the system, evacuate it and charge it back up for you and it is not usually that expensive. An A/C specialty shop will prolly give you the best service for your money since that is what they do every day. Most larger cities have one or two that are easily accessable.
Condensers usually only need replacing if they have been damaged by tools or in an accident. They are not wear items. Evaporators usually only get damaged if the heater box gets damaged from removing or installing an engine, bent inlet/outlets from the hoses being moved or from careless heater core replacment. This is also not a wear item. If either the condenser or evap gets debris in them from a compressor that detonates internally, a simple flush will almost always remove all the debris in the pipes. These dont have tanks like a Heater core or radiator for stuff to hide in.
Your heater core should not need replacing unless it is leaking or clogged and will not unclog. If water flows through it freely and clean then you should be ok here. The heater hoses are another story, these are wear items and are not too bad to replace on the LS1, your hoses are not part of an assembly like the 3.8L hoses are and you can buy all 4 of them. Replace as needed or as preventitive maintenance.
Going this route you should be able to service your entire A/C system, and replace the heater hoses if needed for under $800 incuding the shop labor for the flush, evacuate and recharge. That is if you do the work installing the compressor and hoses.
Massey
Compressor: $242.99 With Clutch
Murray 67288 - Reman Gm V7 Compressor W/ Clutch | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Reciever/Dryer: $85.99 With hose.
Murray 33157 - Accumulator W/ Hose | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Oriface Tube: $1.99
Murray 38638 - Black(Oe Red) Orifice Tube 1 Pkg | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Blower Motor: $39.99
VDO PM3799 - Blower Motor | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Pressure Hose: $104.99
Murray 56650 - Discharge & Suction Line Hose Assembly | O'Reilly Auto Parts
Suction Hose: (part of the reciever/Drier)
With the parts I have listed here I get $475.95 plus your state's taxes. All this can be replaced with out removing the dash. You will have to go under the car to get the compressor out but the rest can be easily gotten to from the top with basic tools. Your local GM dealer or A/C shop can flush the system, evacuate it and charge it back up for you and it is not usually that expensive. An A/C specialty shop will prolly give you the best service for your money since that is what they do every day. Most larger cities have one or two that are easily accessable.
Condensers usually only need replacing if they have been damaged by tools or in an accident. They are not wear items. Evaporators usually only get damaged if the heater box gets damaged from removing or installing an engine, bent inlet/outlets from the hoses being moved or from careless heater core replacment. This is also not a wear item. If either the condenser or evap gets debris in them from a compressor that detonates internally, a simple flush will almost always remove all the debris in the pipes. These dont have tanks like a Heater core or radiator for stuff to hide in.
Your heater core should not need replacing unless it is leaking or clogged and will not unclog. If water flows through it freely and clean then you should be ok here. The heater hoses are another story, these are wear items and are not too bad to replace on the LS1, your hoses are not part of an assembly like the 3.8L hoses are and you can buy all 4 of them. Replace as needed or as preventitive maintenance.
Going this route you should be able to service your entire A/C system, and replace the heater hoses if needed for under $800 incuding the shop labor for the flush, evacuate and recharge. That is if you do the work installing the compressor and hoses.
Massey
#74
04-05-2011, 05:31 PM
The only part of the A/C system that does not do well when left exposed for long periods of time is the Reciever/Drier. This has a dessicant in it that will absorb moisture, thus atmospheric water. If it is opened for a few days (like less than a week) you should be ok, any longer I would get a new one.
The A/C system compresses the freon as a liquid under pressure and pumps that out of the compressor it goes into the oriface tube. Here it can only pass through a small amount at a time which caused the liquid to expand into a gas. This expansion makes the gas really cold. It passes through the reciever/drier and any moisture (such as trapped water) is caught in the dessicant, then the gas moves to the evaporator where air is passed over the fins and tubes to cool the outside air for our comfort. The gas then moves to the top of the condenser, where it is cooled and it starts to return to a liquid state. Just to go back through the compressor to make it all happen again.
The system will not function properly if there is too much freon in the system or not enough. This does not mean that everything is bad it just means that the safety switch has detected too much or too little freon and will not allow the compressor to turn on.
If the compressor does not turn on that could be afew things wrong:
Not enough freon
Too much freon.
Clutch coil bad/not plugged in
Compressor is dead and freon has leaked out.
There is a safety switch that prevents the compressor from activating if the pressure is too high or too low. This prevents a bad compressor from continuing to work or a good compressor from going bad because of no freon/oil to keep it lubed.
You could just need to have your system leak checked and recharged. That will only run you a couple hundred and maybe an hour or 2 waiting in the lobby of the shop (bring a good Camaro related book). The O rings in the system can dry out and cause leaks which is an easy and cheap fix that can be done in waiting room time at most shops.
Massey
The A/C system compresses the freon as a liquid under pressure and pumps that out of the compressor it goes into the oriface tube. Here it can only pass through a small amount at a time which caused the liquid to expand into a gas. This expansion makes the gas really cold. It passes through the reciever/drier and any moisture (such as trapped water) is caught in the dessicant, then the gas moves to the evaporator where air is passed over the fins and tubes to cool the outside air for our comfort. The gas then moves to the top of the condenser, where it is cooled and it starts to return to a liquid state. Just to go back through the compressor to make it all happen again.
The system will not function properly if there is too much freon in the system or not enough. This does not mean that everything is bad it just means that the safety switch has detected too much or too little freon and will not allow the compressor to turn on.
If the compressor does not turn on that could be afew things wrong:
Not enough freon
Too much freon.
Clutch coil bad/not plugged in
Compressor is dead and freon has leaked out.
There is a safety switch that prevents the compressor from activating if the pressure is too high or too low. This prevents a bad compressor from continuing to work or a good compressor from going bad because of no freon/oil to keep it lubed.
You could just need to have your system leak checked and recharged. That will only run you a couple hundred and maybe an hour or 2 waiting in the lobby of the shop (bring a good Camaro related book). The O rings in the system can dry out and cause leaks which is an easy and cheap fix that can be done in waiting room time at most shops.
Massey
#75
04-06-2011, 01:02 PM
Unibodys dont twist... Period. They dont diamond either. That is the talk of frame on body mechanics. Your car can be "bent" tho and with the way these cars are built it would be easy to see in the body lines and gaps. If your gaps look good and you dont have to slam doors or anything like that I am going to guess you are pretty close to being OK. Anytime a unibody car needs any non boltable body part removed and replaced it is conisdered "frame damage" When in actuality there is no frame. If you rear end some one and it takes out the upper tie bar (upper core support on a unibody) and a fender apron which are both welded to the car's structure but not structural parts you get "frame damage" These are parts that most body shops will allow a 1 or 2 year apprentice to replace and the work will come out just fine. The car will prolly not even need to be pulled on the rack but they will measure it just in case. I know this because I lost count of how many I did even before I had been in the shop a year.
If you want to put your mind at ease about any damage, you can always X measure critical parts of the car. That means find identical points in the engine bay or under the body and measure from left ot right in an X pattern. be careful doing this tho since not all holes and points are the same left to right.
As for the car pulling when braking that could simply be a sign of one of the calipers not working properly, or the tierods being worn, or even the crown of the road reacting to the car's tires. Usually a bent body will not show up only when braking but when you look at the gaps, the car shimmies because the wheels are fighting to get forward, water leaks, rattles and wind noise like the car's windows are down. If you dont have any of these issues I would not worry about it.
Just to give you an idea... Look at the pictures of my car when it was wrecked... that was not alot of damage but it was enough to total the car. It did have "frame damage" because of the reinforcement bar that goes along the upper inside of the fender was damaged. I didnt get any pics because I ended up just working through the whole job, but I was able to use a big hammer and a block of wood and knock it all back to the way it was before the wreck. I am not worried about my "frame damage" it is not effecting anything.
Oh and a dent in the 1/4 panel is also frame damage... minor if you can repair it with out replacing the qtr and major if the qtr needs to be replaced, but replacing a qtr is another job that most apprentices can handle after a couple of years in the shop.
Massey
If you want to put your mind at ease about any damage, you can always X measure critical parts of the car. That means find identical points in the engine bay or under the body and measure from left ot right in an X pattern. be careful doing this tho since not all holes and points are the same left to right.
As for the car pulling when braking that could simply be a sign of one of the calipers not working properly, or the tierods being worn, or even the crown of the road reacting to the car's tires. Usually a bent body will not show up only when braking but when you look at the gaps, the car shimmies because the wheels are fighting to get forward, water leaks, rattles and wind noise like the car's windows are down. If you dont have any of these issues I would not worry about it.
Just to give you an idea... Look at the pictures of my car when it was wrecked... that was not alot of damage but it was enough to total the car. It did have "frame damage" because of the reinforcement bar that goes along the upper inside of the fender was damaged. I didnt get any pics because I ended up just working through the whole job, but I was able to use a big hammer and a block of wood and knock it all back to the way it was before the wreck. I am not worried about my "frame damage" it is not effecting anything.
Oh and a dent in the 1/4 panel is also frame damage... minor if you can repair it with out replacing the qtr and major if the qtr needs to be replaced, but replacing a qtr is another job that most apprentices can handle after a couple of years in the shop.
Massey
#76
04-07-2011, 12:04 AM
*the guy who sold me the rims seems to have cored the valve stems. I will need new ones, and he took the weights off.. so I'll need those too. this will add a good $50-100 to the tire buy when the time comes. *
Weights and valve stems come with new tires, you should be ok with no extra expense.
The Murray pump is a Delphi pump, and most pumps in the system today are all remanned anyway, very few are new, and warranties are all about the same.
Massey
Weights and valve stems come with new tires, you should be ok with no extra expense.
The Murray pump is a Delphi pump, and most pumps in the system today are all remanned anyway, very few are new, and warranties are all about the same.
Massey
#77
04-07-2011, 09:25 AM
ya gotta do what ya gotta do I understand that. Here is something for you to chew on tho. The 4th gen Camaro has 305 Advertised Crank HP but in reality it has around 315RWHP which is alot better number all the way around. The car weighs around 3200 lbs and will do 13.6 ish in the 1320.
2010/11 Camaro has 435 crank HP, and that has proven to be pretty close to the real number. It weighs 3850ish and that is almost 700 lbs more then the 4th gens. Now this car can only do 13.5ish in the 1320 which means it has 100 more HP and only gains .1 seconds over the 4th gen stock to stock.
2000 Camaro $5000 for good $10K for really nice or SS
2010/11 Camaro $20K for base and up to $40K for nice SS
If you dont go overboard you can take that $5000 car and put it above the 2010 numbers for less then the base model.
Massey
2010/11 Camaro has 435 crank HP, and that has proven to be pretty close to the real number. It weighs 3850ish and that is almost 700 lbs more then the 4th gens. Now this car can only do 13.5ish in the 1320 which means it has 100 more HP and only gains .1 seconds over the 4th gen stock to stock.
2000 Camaro $5000 for good $10K for really nice or SS
2010/11 Camaro $20K for base and up to $40K for nice SS
If you dont go overboard you can take that $5000 car and put it above the 2010 numbers for less then the base model.
Massey
#78
04-07-2011, 10:34 AM
Simple engine swaps would not require a speed shop to perform. The stock LS1 will set you back in your seat, I know my wife's car does it to me all the time. now a few weeks ago with her old and not tightened plugs it only had OK power. I gave it new plugs and wires and WOW this thing really woke up. Before you discard the engine how about a simple tune up?
Massey
Massey
#79
04-07-2011, 11:38 PM
Why would you pay some one 14K to remove an engine? Hell if you are willing to pay a shop for that I will do it for 1/2 and keep everything in your garage where you dont have to pay for towing or storage. You really need to find a new shop even GM will swap an engine (stock to stock) for about 6K including the engine.
Using an LS3 is going to be challenging, but I believe if you use the front accessory brackets of the LS1 and the LS1 computer(with sensors). You will prolly need the fuel pump to be changed to a high pressure/volume one. You should be able to find this engine out of a 2010 Camaro for cheaper than a Corvette. Same engine same internals just a different computer profile.
You would need to maintain the Camaro's throttle body or a compatable unit and you should be good to go. This is not a hard swap and it is not a 30K swap. I would say 10K with engine is a reasonable price. That is WITH engine not just labor. Finding the engine will be the hard part.
Massey
Using an LS3 is going to be challenging, but I believe if you use the front accessory brackets of the LS1 and the LS1 computer(with sensors). You will prolly need the fuel pump to be changed to a high pressure/volume one. You should be able to find this engine out of a 2010 Camaro for cheaper than a Corvette. Same engine same internals just a different computer profile.
You would need to maintain the Camaro's throttle body or a compatable unit and you should be good to go. This is not a hard swap and it is not a 30K swap. I would say 10K with engine is a reasonable price. That is WITH engine not just labor. Finding the engine will be the hard part.
Massey
#80
04-08-2011, 08:05 PM
From the poking around that I have done you solve the fuel return issue by using the LS1 fuel rail (from what I read it fits the LS3) The reluctor resolution can be tuned into the LS1 computer, and you also use the LS1 throttle body or similar unit that is cable driven for best results, the LS1 wiring will be needed to avoid any hacking of wiring harness's along with the LS1 accessories so everything fits in the Camaro.
The LS1 computer is very versital and can be tuned to run quite a few different engines with out fail.
If you want more than stock power why not stick with an LS1 and just have the thing built? The block as delivered from the factory can produce 800+ HP with stock crank, sleeves, and rods. There are companies out there that rebuild the LS1 with more advanced sleeves and there are other internals that can put 1800 + HP out of this engine. Yes 1800 would be really hard to drive but there is a video of it being done on youtube.
Look into the performance side of the LS1 and see what you can see, for 5K you can build that 400RWHP and it will drop right into your engine bay with nothing more than just a tune at the dyno shop.
I always thought you wanted the LS3 or LQ9 for the coolness factor ,not the HP factor. LS1s can pull the front wheels off the ground all motor if built right. Add a squirt of NO2 and you can really have some fun. Not to mention there are quite a few SC kits that will drop right on the engine and like I said before the LS1 computer is very versital and can be programed to accept the SC with out a piggyback.
Massey
The LS1 computer is very versital and can be tuned to run quite a few different engines with out fail.
If you want more than stock power why not stick with an LS1 and just have the thing built? The block as delivered from the factory can produce 800+ HP with stock crank, sleeves, and rods. There are companies out there that rebuild the LS1 with more advanced sleeves and there are other internals that can put 1800 + HP out of this engine. Yes 1800 would be really hard to drive but there is a video of it being done on youtube.
Look into the performance side of the LS1 and see what you can see, for 5K you can build that 400RWHP and it will drop right into your engine bay with nothing more than just a tune at the dyno shop.
I always thought you wanted the LS3 or LQ9 for the coolness factor ,not the HP factor. LS1s can pull the front wheels off the ground all motor if built right. Add a squirt of NO2 and you can really have some fun. Not to mention there are quite a few SC kits that will drop right on the engine and like I said before the LS1 computer is very versital and can be programed to accept the SC with out a piggyback.
Massey