Armor-coated Headers: Worth It?
#21
04-24-2012, 01:34 PM
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 167
#22
04-24-2012, 10:23 PM
Have some 3.8 Camaro torque curves for comparison -- LT vs. Shorties/Mids?
The reason to go with LTs is usually low-end torque -- who doesn't like that?
As SLP proves, you can certainly tune the power band to different rpms on LTs, so I am not sold (granted different engines, but similar principles):
http://www.slponline.com/view_produc...48&BIG=30048-1
"This new Long Tube Design by SLP Performance Parts supports more Mid to Upper RPM power compared to the Tuned Length Design. This gives you the option to pick the header design that is best suited for your application. The New Long Tube Headers will produce +11 HP and + 10 ft-lbs in the 4800-6200 RPM Range compared to the Tuned Length Design. As the current Tuned Length Design will produce +7 HP and + 12 ft-lbs additional in the 2600-3400 RPM range compared to the New Long Tube Header Design.
YES there is a difference between a "TUNED LENGTH HEADER" and a "LONG TUBE HEADER". A Tuned Length Header as can be seen on the dyno graph below has primary lengths designed to provide power at a certain RPM band. In the case of the SLP Tuned Length Header 2500-4000 RPM. While a Long Tube Header has as long as possible primaries to provide the best possible gain in the higher RPM ranges. "
Further, 3.6 5th Gen Camaro LTs are readily available...
Stainless Works 2010 Camaro V6 Long Tube Headers Stainless Works introduces 304L SS CNC mandrel bent headers and dual catback exhausts for your new 2010 Camaro V6 3.6L engine. Long tube headers are available in 1-5/8” or 1-3/4” diameter p
and
http://pacesetterexhaust.com/muscle-...spx#gm_headers
The reason to go with LTs is usually low-end torque -- who doesn't like that?
As SLP proves, you can certainly tune the power band to different rpms on LTs, so I am not sold (granted different engines, but similar principles):
http://www.slponline.com/view_produc...48&BIG=30048-1
"This new Long Tube Design by SLP Performance Parts supports more Mid to Upper RPM power compared to the Tuned Length Design. This gives you the option to pick the header design that is best suited for your application. The New Long Tube Headers will produce +11 HP and + 10 ft-lbs in the 4800-6200 RPM Range compared to the Tuned Length Design. As the current Tuned Length Design will produce +7 HP and + 12 ft-lbs additional in the 2600-3400 RPM range compared to the New Long Tube Header Design.
YES there is a difference between a "TUNED LENGTH HEADER" and a "LONG TUBE HEADER". A Tuned Length Header as can be seen on the dyno graph below has primary lengths designed to provide power at a certain RPM band. In the case of the SLP Tuned Length Header 2500-4000 RPM. While a Long Tube Header has as long as possible primaries to provide the best possible gain in the higher RPM ranges. "
Further, 3.6 5th Gen Camaro LTs are readily available...
Stainless Works 2010 Camaro V6 Long Tube Headers Stainless Works introduces 304L SS CNC mandrel bent headers and dual catback exhausts for your new 2010 Camaro V6 3.6L engine. Long tube headers are available in 1-5/8” or 1-3/4” diameter p
and
http://pacesetterexhaust.com/muscle-...spx#gm_headers
Let me see if I can help you fathom. As the volume of the exhaust increase, depending on the size of the tube, the highest point of the exhaust velocity gets farther away from the engine. In a perfect exhaust the headers would start off as a shorty then as the RPMs increased the collector would get farther away then towards the higher RPMs a long header is needed. Since dynos are always looked at for MAX HP long tube headers make a lot of sense. They are going to give you the best result if all you care about is Dyno or ¼ mile time, if you want a better all around car you want to look at the weak spots of the motor and tune the header to help that. These header manufactures are not stupid, they know 98% of the people who install headers on a V6 are going to judge them by butt dyno. Butt dyno is passing a car on the highway in the 2000-3500 RPM range. The 3800 is going to respond better in that RPM range to mid length headers then long tube. In fact at 2000 RPM shorties may do better. Most people rarely get into the 5000 RPM range during their daily commute. Does that help with the fathoming?
I could go into the cost factor but that point is moot. The true cost to mass produce long tube vs short tube would be less than a 10% increase. The manufacturer just knows most people would not be happy with them. Long tubes current cost are high because of volume. The 1- 2% of the V6 world that would actually dyno or race a V6 is simply not worth mass production.
I could go into the cost factor but that point is moot. The true cost to mass produce long tube vs short tube would be less than a 10% increase. The manufacturer just knows most people would not be happy with them. Long tubes current cost are high because of volume. The 1- 2% of the V6 world that would actually dyno or race a V6 is simply not worth mass production.
Last edited by libertyforall1776; 04-24-2012 at 10:38 PM.
#23
04-27-2012, 03:23 PM
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 167
Well, I think I'll wait til I can do LTs. Since I don't (usually) drive that fast, or go very high in RPM, I'd rather have more torque. Hopefully those LTs will still be around when I have money for them. College has me uncomfortably close to broke right now anyway.
#24
04-27-2012, 08:04 PM
Well, I think I'll wait til I can do LTs. Since I don't (usually) drive that fast, or go very high in RPM, I'd rather have more torque. Hopefully those LTs will still be around when I have money for them. College has me uncomfortably close to broke right now anyway.
While a Long Tube Header has as long as possible primaries to provide the best possible gain in the higher RPM ranges
As a general rule most headers mass produced today are tuned which is why they have those funny bends in them that appear to be for no reason. With CNC benders and 3D CAD systems tuned headers are easy to design. Custom made headers are rarly tuned headers. Trust me when I say the standard mid lengh pacestter style header is going to be a better header for you. That does not come from me reading what a manufacturer has said about their product, That comes from building street and race cars.
BTW the above link is all about LS1s no one is going to be developing new products for 10-20 year old V6s. In fact many of the 4th gen V6 bolt on are already being discontinued. I doubt anyone is going to spend capital developing new products for a 4th gen V6 when they could spent the money on a 5th gen and maybe get 15 more years of manufacturing out of the tooling needed.
Your 02 manifolds are basicly shorty headers. They are not tuned, that can be tuff to do on shorties but compaired to a 97 3800 they will give you more on the low end then even the mid length I am saying you should get. The mid lengths will cost you a few ft lbs in the 2000 RPM range but the tune and the length will give 10-15 Ft lbs at the 4000 PRM range. IMO its worth it. That is why I tossed the 02s manifolds I had and used the mid length.
Last edited by Gorn; 04-27-2012 at 08:17 PM.
#25
04-29-2012, 01:37 PM
If you are not racing the 3.8, you will notice a lot of gain on the highway with LT, just as I noticed them with the SLP CAI, and Whisper lid... The bigger question might be if you loose any torque/hp lower in the curve with LTs on the 3.8...
Also, if custom headers were made, you can tune them to the application.
When you are saying "standard mid lengh pacestter style header is going to be a better header for you", you are saying that from the perspective that they will provide better power in the lower part of the curve...
Now, if only someone were to dyno the same car with both... An issue with testing that scenario is the Y-Pipe is definitely custom for the LTs, which likely means high flow cats (I would stay catted, no fan of extra rasp).
Your point about nobody developing NEW 4th Gen parts is only part-true for some manufacturers, certainly not others -- Kooks just released their true-duals exhaust system a few months back, and UMI is still developing new suspension parts (like 3 point 'vert subframe connectors a few months back)...
The reason I have not put headers on my RS yet (or SS for that matter) is I tend to spend a lot of time learning before pulling the trigger, so I know, as best as possible, what the results should be like. I don't like the Pacesetters since they are not stainless steel, and I want them to hold up to the midwest "winter salt celebration". lol As is, even with all the bolt-ons so far on my RS, I still am not too satisfied with low-end tq.
My SS will likely get them probably in a couple months, looking at stepped 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 LTs from ARH, w/catted Y...
Also, if custom headers were made, you can tune them to the application.
When you are saying "standard mid lengh pacestter style header is going to be a better header for you", you are saying that from the perspective that they will provide better power in the lower part of the curve...
Now, if only someone were to dyno the same car with both... An issue with testing that scenario is the Y-Pipe is definitely custom for the LTs, which likely means high flow cats (I would stay catted, no fan of extra rasp).
Your point about nobody developing NEW 4th Gen parts is only part-true for some manufacturers, certainly not others -- Kooks just released their true-duals exhaust system a few months back, and UMI is still developing new suspension parts (like 3 point 'vert subframe connectors a few months back)...
The reason I have not put headers on my RS yet (or SS for that matter) is I tend to spend a lot of time learning before pulling the trigger, so I know, as best as possible, what the results should be like. I don't like the Pacesetters since they are not stainless steel, and I want them to hold up to the midwest "winter salt celebration". lol As is, even with all the bolt-ons so far on my RS, I still am not too satisfied with low-end tq.
My SS will likely get them probably in a couple months, looking at stepped 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 LTs from ARH, w/catted Y...
I don't think you read the facts in the link. It stated TUNED headers can be better for lower RPM (Normally in header manufacture tune lengh is about all the pipes being the same length)
Which is exactly what I said about long tube headers. They are not for your application.
As a general rule most headers mass produced today are tuned which is why they have those funny bends in them that appear to be for no reason. With CNC benders and 3D CAD systems tuned headers are easy to design. Custom made headers are rarly tuned headers. Trust me when I say the standard mid lengh pacestter style header is going to be a better header for you. That does not come from me reading what a manufacturer has said about their product, That comes from building street and race cars.
BTW the above link is all about LS1s no one is going to be developing new products for 10-20 year old V6s. In fact many of the 4th gen V6 bolt on are already being discontinued. I doubt anyone is going to spend capital developing new products for a 4th gen V6 when they could spent the money on a 5th gen and maybe get 15 more years of manufacturing out of the tooling needed.
Your 02 manifolds are basicly shorty headers. They are not tuned, that can be tuff to do on shorties but compaired to a 97 3800 they will give you more on the low end then even the mid length I am saying you should get. The mid lengths will cost you a few ft lbs in the 2000 RPM range but the tune and the length will give 10-15 Ft lbs at the 4000 PRM range. IMO its worth it. That is why I tossed the 02s manifolds I had and used the mid length.
Which is exactly what I said about long tube headers. They are not for your application.
As a general rule most headers mass produced today are tuned which is why they have those funny bends in them that appear to be for no reason. With CNC benders and 3D CAD systems tuned headers are easy to design. Custom made headers are rarly tuned headers. Trust me when I say the standard mid lengh pacestter style header is going to be a better header for you. That does not come from me reading what a manufacturer has said about their product, That comes from building street and race cars.
BTW the above link is all about LS1s no one is going to be developing new products for 10-20 year old V6s. In fact many of the 4th gen V6 bolt on are already being discontinued. I doubt anyone is going to spend capital developing new products for a 4th gen V6 when they could spent the money on a 5th gen and maybe get 15 more years of manufacturing out of the tooling needed.
Your 02 manifolds are basicly shorty headers. They are not tuned, that can be tuff to do on shorties but compaired to a 97 3800 they will give you more on the low end then even the mid length I am saying you should get. The mid lengths will cost you a few ft lbs in the 2000 RPM range but the tune and the length will give 10-15 Ft lbs at the 4000 PRM range. IMO its worth it. That is why I tossed the 02s manifolds I had and used the mid length.
#26
04-29-2012, 05:32 PM
Your point about nobody developing NEW 4th Gen parts is only part-true for some manufacturers, certainly not others -- Kooks just released their true-duals exhaust system a few months back, and UMI is still developing new suspension parts (like 3 point 'vert subframe connectors a few months back)...
BTW the above link is all about LS1s no one is going to be developing new products for 10-20 year old V6s.
I have made headers and custom making a tuned set of header would cost more then most V6 cars are worth. Like I said the process to custom make a header is not hard, to make a tuned header on the car as a one off is a huge pain and can take days to get right at 100 bucks an hour.
#28
05-14-2012, 04:08 PM
Gorn do those headers you put the link up for really come with the y pipe and everything else in the pic?
#29
05-14-2012, 08:01 PM
Yes it comes with everything in the picture. I did have to buy new bolts, the ones they supplied where no where near long enough to use the springs in the right configuration. I also found the EGR tube for the 02 worked better then the one form the 96.
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