View Poll Results: Which engine would you get?
patriot's 383 500hp/500tq
2
16.67%
United racing 383 506hp/500tq
0
0%
phoenix muscle car 454 455hp/492-525tq
10
83.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll
which engine to get for my '81 camaro?
#21
10-27-2009, 04:08 PM
Ok, since I've done a few conversions in Camaros from SBC to BBC I'll tell you what I've done.
First, there's no magic to motor mounts. If you have the std. small block frame location mounts, then simply use SBC engine mounts. If you try to use BBC engine mounts, then you'll have to take the frame mounts off and change to the BBC frame mounts. Why bother, when the SBC mounts bolt right on a BBC and to the frame. Get polyurethane or Moroso solid steel, but stay away from Energy Systems SBC mounts, as they have clearance issues.
Headers or stock manifold will drop right in, and the Doug Thorley headers I used dropped right in from the top! Just pulled the spark plugs and slid them into place, bolted them up and put the plugs back in.
You'll need to reroute your alternator wiring from passenger side to driver's side, as that's what all the BBC Camaros used. The alternative is to fabricate a altenator mount for the passenger side, which is what I chose. I just mocked up a mount, tacked it together on the engine, then removed it and welded it up. I didn't want the alternator above my PS pump, so chose to do it this way. Two others used the stock alternator/power steering pump brackets and relocated the wiring. You choose what you want.
Engine location doesn't change, so nothing to change with the tranny. Simply bolt it up. I did have to change the radiator to the big one, and that meant cutting out the core support on every swap. 5 minutes with a jig saw or Sawzall. Then some filing and paint.
Anything else is optional, depending on what you want to do with the exhaust and rearend.
First, there's no magic to motor mounts. If you have the std. small block frame location mounts, then simply use SBC engine mounts. If you try to use BBC engine mounts, then you'll have to take the frame mounts off and change to the BBC frame mounts. Why bother, when the SBC mounts bolt right on a BBC and to the frame. Get polyurethane or Moroso solid steel, but stay away from Energy Systems SBC mounts, as they have clearance issues.
Headers or stock manifold will drop right in, and the Doug Thorley headers I used dropped right in from the top! Just pulled the spark plugs and slid them into place, bolted them up and put the plugs back in.
You'll need to reroute your alternator wiring from passenger side to driver's side, as that's what all the BBC Camaros used. The alternative is to fabricate a altenator mount for the passenger side, which is what I chose. I just mocked up a mount, tacked it together on the engine, then removed it and welded it up. I didn't want the alternator above my PS pump, so chose to do it this way. Two others used the stock alternator/power steering pump brackets and relocated the wiring. You choose what you want.
Engine location doesn't change, so nothing to change with the tranny. Simply bolt it up. I did have to change the radiator to the big one, and that meant cutting out the core support on every swap. 5 minutes with a jig saw or Sawzall. Then some filing and paint.
Anything else is optional, depending on what you want to do with the exhaust and rearend.
#22
10-27-2009, 06:21 PM
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 9,097
It's a pain to have to carry a funnel in the trunk just to top off the power steering. It's easier to have it clear on pass. side and just pour it in.
You can't buy a "kit" to extend the wiring. Just need to cut the wires, and then reroute them and splice them with either buttsplices and solder and shrink wrap. There's ony 3 wires, so it's very easy.
You can't buy a "kit" to extend the wiring. Just need to cut the wires, and then reroute them and splice them with either buttsplices and solder and shrink wrap. There's ony 3 wires, so it's very easy.
#23
10-29-2009, 03:17 PM
well thanks everybody for the advice but i decided to just go with my original idea of a 383 because its a lot cheaper..i found the 454,468 and 509 for under 4500 and i was talking to a local engine rebuilder and he was questioning the quality of parts if there that cheap. realizing that he might be "pitching" to me, i thought maybe he's right. he said he built 454's with 455hp for like no less than 10k so i was wondering why would they sell a 454 with 455hp for only $4500..something can't be right
and i can't afford 10k so im gonna just go with a 383 that i found from united racing engines, anybody heard of them?
they have a 383 with 442hp for around $5000 with pro comp heads, 10:1 cr, KB forged pistons, PEP forged scat and rods and new 4 bolt main..they told me that the pro comp heads make more hp when they CNC port them than dart or edelbrock. i thought that dart would be better but they said they work the heads and CNC port them and they turn out better, what do you think?
i've heard some bad and good things about pro comp heads so i asked about AFR heads and they said i could upgrade to AFR heads and do about 455hp for an extra $600 and i haven't heard of PEP so i asked about getting scat crank and rods and he's gonna check on the price since they get the PEP in mass quantities. sound good?
but there's also a 3 year warranty on there engines and cheap shipping to the west coast and there guaranteed to dyno at there numbers
what do you guys think?
(sorry for asking so many questions but i just wanna make sure i dont get screwed and get the best bang for the buck but still retain quality)
and i can't afford 10k so im gonna just go with a 383 that i found from united racing engines, anybody heard of them?
they have a 383 with 442hp for around $5000 with pro comp heads, 10:1 cr, KB forged pistons, PEP forged scat and rods and new 4 bolt main..they told me that the pro comp heads make more hp when they CNC port them than dart or edelbrock. i thought that dart would be better but they said they work the heads and CNC port them and they turn out better, what do you think?
i've heard some bad and good things about pro comp heads so i asked about AFR heads and they said i could upgrade to AFR heads and do about 455hp for an extra $600 and i haven't heard of PEP so i asked about getting scat crank and rods and he's gonna check on the price since they get the PEP in mass quantities. sound good?
but there's also a 3 year warranty on there engines and cheap shipping to the west coast and there guaranteed to dyno at there numbers
what do you guys think?
(sorry for asking so many questions but i just wanna make sure i dont get screwed and get the best bang for the buck but still retain quality)
#24
10-29-2009, 07:56 PM
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 9,097
I personally think you're worrrying way too much. If a small local builder charges 10k to build up a 454, then it's because he's either doing a lot of things by hand and needs to cover all the hours he's got in it, or he's making huge profits on his work. Either way, you're comparing apples to oranges when you compare a small shop to a big operation. They just do things differently, so labor is less, and they purchase their parts in volume at a big shop, so their prices for parts are much less. If he can't build one for that price, it doesn't mean it's junk, it means he can't compete with a big builder.
Look at what GM builds, and the warranty they give. If you can buy a 454 with 440hp for a paltry $6,000 and get a warranty, is it junk? One would assume so if you listen to your local engine builder, because he can't do it for less than 10k, and he wont give you the waranty GM does. (24 months or 50,000 miles!)
I personally would buy a rebuildable engine and do it myself, but I realise that's not best for everyone. But I'd darn sure get a GM motor with warranty before I had anyone build one up at $4k more.
Here's the 454ci, 440hp, aluminum head GM motor.
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/stor...7-P799C54.aspx
Look at what GM builds, and the warranty they give. If you can buy a 454 with 440hp for a paltry $6,000 and get a warranty, is it junk? One would assume so if you listen to your local engine builder, because he can't do it for less than 10k, and he wont give you the waranty GM does. (24 months or 50,000 miles!)
I personally would buy a rebuildable engine and do it myself, but I realise that's not best for everyone. But I'd darn sure get a GM motor with warranty before I had anyone build one up at $4k more.
Here's the 454ci, 440hp, aluminum head GM motor.
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/stor...7-P799C54.aspx
#25
10-29-2009, 08:30 PM
yeah i cant help to worry because im gonna be spending alot of money and don't wanna get screwed
but that does make sense about the small vs big engine builders..but this just opens up the can of worms again lol
thats a really good deal on that 454 but i can also get the 383 with 450hp from united racing engines for about 6500 and its complete ready to run..with a big block there's more to upgrade as well like drivetrain and cooling since there's more torque..so i guess i'll just have to decide on something lol
but united racing does have a 3 year warranty and offers a layaway program
but that does make sense about the small vs big engine builders..but this just opens up the can of worms again lol
thats a really good deal on that 454 but i can also get the 383 with 450hp from united racing engines for about 6500 and its complete ready to run..with a big block there's more to upgrade as well like drivetrain and cooling since there's more torque..so i guess i'll just have to decide on something lol
but united racing does have a 3 year warranty and offers a layaway program
#26
10-29-2009, 11:10 PM
i mean i know that the BB's are more streetable with lower numbers because they come with more power stock than SB's but if you could get a 383 with a 40 ft/lbs less torque but the same hp, compression and cam duration as a 454, would you do it? the 383 would weigh a few hundred pounds less also so does that outweigh the torque loss
#27
10-29-2009, 11:19 PM
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 9,097
It's not a case of comparing hp and torque alone. It's a fact that making similar hp and torque with a 383 sbc vs. a 454 bbc that the sbc will most likely be stressed a bit more to crank out similar hp and torque.
Yes, URE has a good warranty, but you better have them send you a copy of it to see the fine print. Any engine with that much power will have some "loopholes" in their waranty. Be sure the warranty is good enough that if it blows they will cover you.
Sometimes the warranties cover parts, but not labor. Sometimes they exclude any car used in competition. Sometimes they require that you have all service documented at authorized service centers.
I'm not trying to talk you into anything, but as you said it's hard earned money, and you need to look at and weigh every detail before you choose an engine.
Yes, URE has a good warranty, but you better have them send you a copy of it to see the fine print. Any engine with that much power will have some "loopholes" in their waranty. Be sure the warranty is good enough that if it blows they will cover you.
Sometimes the warranties cover parts, but not labor. Sometimes they exclude any car used in competition. Sometimes they require that you have all service documented at authorized service centers.
I'm not trying to talk you into anything, but as you said it's hard earned money, and you need to look at and weigh every detail before you choose an engine.
#28
11-02-2009, 10:36 AM
ok then how about this:
i found a blown 468 locally
here's some info that he sent:
the rods were turned .030 and the mains are turned .020 and yes the crank and rods are forged the pistons are for a blower and were ordered through epw for this setup it has everything new high flow oil pump from mellings it is a flat tappet cam with a double roller timing chain the cam is a comp cam with adv. .547 lift and duration at .050 232 intake and .237 exhaust with 114 lobe seperation and has the dual valve springs 1.7 7/16 stud harland Sharp aluminum full roller rockers. They stayed with the stock ratio rockers and decked the block and reworked the heads. the heads were the original cast heads just flow tested to make them perform better the heads were professionally done by flowtechnics and the chrome headers i forgot what the application was but i do believe it was camaro or firebird. if your interested still let me know i'ts set up to run 6 lbs of boost and it's compression was calcutalted at 9.25.1
it's got a B&M blower and its $5000. its risky because it hasn't been dyno'd,its not currently in a car and no warranty but a great deal and he thinks it has around 600hp
what do you think?
supercharging does make the power more streetable
i found a blown 468 locally
here's some info that he sent:
the rods were turned .030 and the mains are turned .020 and yes the crank and rods are forged the pistons are for a blower and were ordered through epw for this setup it has everything new high flow oil pump from mellings it is a flat tappet cam with a double roller timing chain the cam is a comp cam with adv. .547 lift and duration at .050 232 intake and .237 exhaust with 114 lobe seperation and has the dual valve springs 1.7 7/16 stud harland Sharp aluminum full roller rockers. They stayed with the stock ratio rockers and decked the block and reworked the heads. the heads were the original cast heads just flow tested to make them perform better the heads were professionally done by flowtechnics and the chrome headers i forgot what the application was but i do believe it was camaro or firebird. if your interested still let me know i'ts set up to run 6 lbs of boost and it's compression was calcutalted at 9.25.1
it's got a B&M blower and its $5000. its risky because it hasn't been dyno'd,its not currently in a car and no warranty but a great deal and he thinks it has around 600hp
what do you think?
supercharging does make the power more streetable
Last edited by jason7504; 11-02-2009 at 10:56 AM.
#29
11-02-2009, 05:59 PM
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 9,097
Looks like a screaming deal, and hard to envision they could sell that so cheap, especially since that blower setup alone would cost well over half the asking price! You'll need a remote oil reservoir from what I can tell. Those lines above the oil filter are for a cooler or reservoir.
I'd sure consider it, but I'd also want some sort of guarantee, even if it was 30 days. Just to ensure it runs on start up and for the breakin period. I would think they'd do at least that much.
I'd sure consider it, but I'd also want some sort of guarantee, even if it was 30 days. Just to ensure it runs on start up and for the breakin period. I would think they'd do at least that much.
#30
11-02-2009, 07:43 PM
I just want to know why there's a fan attached to the bottom of the oil pan. 
Yeah, I would definitely think about getting at the least a startup/doa warranty on it. We've cranked engines while still hanging on the engine hoist while working on engines for boats. They have the manifolds and risers on them though so if you did that I would suggest atleast some mid length headers or something.
Yeah, I would definitely think about getting at the least a startup/doa warranty on it. We've cranked engines while still hanging on the engine hoist while working on engines for boats. They have the manifolds and risers on them though so if you did that I would suggest atleast some mid length headers or something.