1999 no start problem
#21
Sounds like you have power on the eng control fuse because from what you mentioned here - it is the opposite which indicates that you have power with key on and should lose power with key off. If I am wrong; may have misread the thread since it has been a long day for me.
So we have power at the ICM. Lets take a step back and grab a little more info.
What was the car doing or not doing? Was your son driving somewhere and then got stuck? Did the car show any symptoms of just dying on its own in the past? How did the car run up to this? Did your son go out in the morning and it just wouldn't start?
Do you have access to a diagnostic scanner to see if there are any codes present? I am going to assume that you replaced the ICM because you didn't have spark but were you able to confirm it was bad?
Fuel pressure at the rail does not mean the injectors are being pulsed. Have you checked all plugs to make sure not one is firing?
Another thing I would suggest is double check your connections on your new ICM harness. There are some overlap in colors that can be confused. The diagram I am looking at has a black with white stripe wire and a white with black stripe, there are 2 white wires and 1 white with a black stripe - there are a lot of similar colored wires that would be easy to cross. If the 2 white wires are crossed that would definitely cause a problem because the diagram I am looking at says 1 white is for the Tach and the other white wire is a control wire for the ECM to control the ICM (after 400RPMS are achieved).
Sorry to slam you with questions but just trying to help.
If you are 100% sure that the ICM is 100% right then the next thing I would move onto would be checking the crank position sensor.
So we have power at the ICM. Lets take a step back and grab a little more info.
What was the car doing or not doing? Was your son driving somewhere and then got stuck? Did the car show any symptoms of just dying on its own in the past? How did the car run up to this? Did your son go out in the morning and it just wouldn't start?
Do you have access to a diagnostic scanner to see if there are any codes present? I am going to assume that you replaced the ICM because you didn't have spark but were you able to confirm it was bad?
Fuel pressure at the rail does not mean the injectors are being pulsed. Have you checked all plugs to make sure not one is firing?
Another thing I would suggest is double check your connections on your new ICM harness. There are some overlap in colors that can be confused. The diagram I am looking at has a black with white stripe wire and a white with black stripe, there are 2 white wires and 1 white with a black stripe - there are a lot of similar colored wires that would be easy to cross. If the 2 white wires are crossed that would definitely cause a problem because the diagram I am looking at says 1 white is for the Tach and the other white wire is a control wire for the ECM to control the ICM (after 400RPMS are achieved).
Sorry to slam you with questions but just trying to help.
If you are 100% sure that the ICM is 100% right then the next thing I would move onto would be checking the crank position sensor.
I do have access to a scanner but have not taken advantage of it yet, I will tomorrow. I replaced the ICM because of the burnt plug which also burnt the ICM. We had the ICM checked today and it is good. I also ohmed out the coil packs and they are also good. When we replaced the ICM plug we did it one wire at a time so not to get confused. One strange thing the donor plug came from an Impala with a 3.8. The plug from the camaro didn't use one of the wires it was blocked off so we terminated the wire from the donor plug to make it water tight and connected to nothing.
Now what I found today. Terminal #30 on the ignition relay in the fuse box DID NOT have voltage. Looking at the wiring diagram I think it should have 12 volts at all times. I found a unused terminal on the fuse block which had 12 volts and jumped it to terminal 87. Then I check to see if there was voltage at the ign ctrl fuse, there was not. That told me that the fuse block where the relay plugs in is bad. I pulled the fuse and then I used that same 12 volt circuit to send power to the pink wire at the ICM. There was voltage on the pink wire at the ICM then tried to start the car, still no go but you could smell fuel (hadn't smelled fuel for awhile). Then I attached my timing light to see if I was getting spark, I was not. I'm sorry for being long winded but I'm hoping this might be helpful.
Along the way we have also changed the cam sensor and crank sensor with new ones. I'm wondering what could have caused the ICM plug and the relay both to have damage usually caused by over amperage. I kinda think this may be where the problem will be.
#23
#24
Symptoms do sound like ICM or crank position sensor on the way out.
Smart idea doing one wire at a time. Sounds like you went pin for pin and not color for color.
Based on the wire diagram socket terminal 30 should have 12V at all times. The fuel smell makes sense because on the diagram that pink wire is shared by a few fuses ENG CTRL, ENG SEN, INJ 1 & INJ 2. So sounds like now the injectors are getting power and the PCM is commanding them to spray.
There could be a few causes for not having 12V on terminal 30. You could have a burnt relay socket or some where further up you have a burnt wire running to it. I don't think it is a fuseable link or a MAXI fuse because like I mentioned before you would have lost the power feed to your ignition switch all together from what this diagram shows.
I know you mentioned the pin locations of the burnt wires but I can not see the pin locations can you post what the wire colors were? It is possible that it could have grounded out something on the PCM which may not be good.
My hypothetical explanation of what could have damaged the connector and relay would more than likely be an overheated ICM. If the ICM got hot enough it could have heated the plastic connector and allowed it to become a direct short in between pins. Or simply could have happen because of the elements (hot engine temps and such). Why that would have taken out something upstream of the fuse I am not sure. Unless it was a bad fuse (which I have seen) and did not fail at the proper amp rating or too big of a fuse was in the socket.
I think if you can track back the power failure and restore power to that circuit you should be in business. There could be another wire affected near it.
Smart idea doing one wire at a time. Sounds like you went pin for pin and not color for color.
Based on the wire diagram socket terminal 30 should have 12V at all times. The fuel smell makes sense because on the diagram that pink wire is shared by a few fuses ENG CTRL, ENG SEN, INJ 1 & INJ 2. So sounds like now the injectors are getting power and the PCM is commanding them to spray.
There could be a few causes for not having 12V on terminal 30. You could have a burnt relay socket or some where further up you have a burnt wire running to it. I don't think it is a fuseable link or a MAXI fuse because like I mentioned before you would have lost the power feed to your ignition switch all together from what this diagram shows.
I know you mentioned the pin locations of the burnt wires but I can not see the pin locations can you post what the wire colors were? It is possible that it could have grounded out something on the PCM which may not be good.
My hypothetical explanation of what could have damaged the connector and relay would more than likely be an overheated ICM. If the ICM got hot enough it could have heated the plastic connector and allowed it to become a direct short in between pins. Or simply could have happen because of the elements (hot engine temps and such). Why that would have taken out something upstream of the fuse I am not sure. Unless it was a bad fuse (which I have seen) and did not fail at the proper amp rating or too big of a fuse was in the socket.
I think if you can track back the power failure and restore power to that circuit you should be in business. There could be another wire affected near it.
#25
Symptoms do sound like ICM or crank position sensor on the way out.
Smart idea doing one wire at a time. Sounds like you went pin for pin and not color for color.
Based on the wire diagram socket terminal 30 should have 12V at all times. The fuel smell makes sense because on the diagram that pink wire is shared by a few fuses ENG CTRL, ENG SEN, INJ 1 & INJ 2. So sounds like now the injectors are getting power and the PCM is commanding them to spray.
There could be a few causes for not having 12V on terminal 30. You could have a burnt relay socket or some where further up you have a burnt wire running to it. I don't think it is a fuseable link or a MAXI fuse because like I mentioned before you would have lost the power feed to your ignition switch all together from what this diagram shows.
I know you mentioned the pin locations of the burnt wires but I can not see the pin locations can you post what the wire colors were? It is possible that it could have grounded out something on the PCM which may not be good.
My hypothetical explanation of what could have damaged the connector and relay would more than likely be an overheated ICM. If the ICM got hot enough it could have heated the plastic connector and allowed it to become a direct short in between pins. Or simply could have happen because of the elements (hot engine temps and such). Why that would have taken out something upstream of the fuse I am not sure. Unless it was a bad fuse (which I have seen) and did not fail at the proper amp rating or too big of a fuse was in the socket.
I think if you can track back the power failure and restore power to that circuit you should be in business. There could be another wire affected near it.
Smart idea doing one wire at a time. Sounds like you went pin for pin and not color for color.
Based on the wire diagram socket terminal 30 should have 12V at all times. The fuel smell makes sense because on the diagram that pink wire is shared by a few fuses ENG CTRL, ENG SEN, INJ 1 & INJ 2. So sounds like now the injectors are getting power and the PCM is commanding them to spray.
There could be a few causes for not having 12V on terminal 30. You could have a burnt relay socket or some where further up you have a burnt wire running to it. I don't think it is a fuseable link or a MAXI fuse because like I mentioned before you would have lost the power feed to your ignition switch all together from what this diagram shows.
I know you mentioned the pin locations of the burnt wires but I can not see the pin locations can you post what the wire colors were? It is possible that it could have grounded out something on the PCM which may not be good.
My hypothetical explanation of what could have damaged the connector and relay would more than likely be an overheated ICM. If the ICM got hot enough it could have heated the plastic connector and allowed it to become a direct short in between pins. Or simply could have happen because of the elements (hot engine temps and such). Why that would have taken out something upstream of the fuse I am not sure. Unless it was a bad fuse (which I have seen) and did not fail at the proper amp rating or too big of a fuse was in the socket.
I think if you can track back the power failure and restore power to that circuit you should be in business. There could be another wire affected near it.
#26
The diagram in-front of me shows the red with a black stripe is a "ref low" that comes from the PCM and the black is the ground for the ICM. This part may be a problem and maybe someone on here smarter than me with PCM stuff can chime in. I don't know if it is a simply 5v ref output from the PCM or what. If you get power back into the circuit and still have a no spark issue that maybe something to look at.
Sounds like there was a high current draw from the ICM. That would explain the burnt connector. I think the ICM somehow was fried and caused a direct short and the burnt up connector is a by product of that.
As much of a pain it can be... that is an awesome way to teach your son some very valuable skills! I had the same growing up. My father helped me build a 1980 Firebird with a 6.6L Pontiac 400 (well he would let me get frustrated than come save the day when I hit a wall). At the time I acted like a typical teenage jerk but years later it was the best time I have had and wish I could find the old girl for the sentimental value.
Sounds like there was a high current draw from the ICM. That would explain the burnt connector. I think the ICM somehow was fried and caused a direct short and the burnt up connector is a by product of that.
As much of a pain it can be... that is an awesome way to teach your son some very valuable skills! I had the same growing up. My father helped me build a 1980 Firebird with a 6.6L Pontiac 400 (well he would let me get frustrated than come save the day when I hit a wall). At the time I acted like a typical teenage jerk but years later it was the best time I have had and wish I could find the old girl for the sentimental value.
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