i think chevy was on the right track, with the "futuristic" look, not the "retro" look. they should make the camaro, not what the 4gens looked like, but something like that, not retro.
but then again, theres people that like the retro better.
and ur right about the LS7 thing, which is why most think the top of the line, equal to a GT500, camaro, will be about 40K, where the mustang is 55K+. cuz, if it was around the price of a vette, then it wouldnt be worth to get, unless u just liked the looks of it. hard to say tho. cuz a 30-40K 400HP+ car, is unheard of at same time, wicked cheap, GM would almost lose money(like they did on the GTO.) but i do beleave the base line V6 will be around 15-20k, they'd want to out sell the cobalts, ions and G's.

 

By the time the camaro comes out the GT500 at 500hp will be out of production ( 2 year prod run) with the base msrp at 43k, the base corvette goes for 39k at 400 hp. I think that GM should also stay with the future look because of aerodynamics and a great engine (just loose a little weight) will be a wicked running car. The 6 banger Mustang base goes for 15k with 240 hp, add a S/C for 6k and you can get around 330-360hp which would be cheaper and faster then the V8 pony for 23k at 300hp. Now the V6 camaro will be running at 300hp if they can sell them at 15-20k they will be out selling ford instantly year for year, but if history is any indication Chevy was always 2-5k higher then ford wether its car's or truck's which I doubt you will see the camaro V6 at anything under 18k , then you have those greedy dealerships which will ask anywhere from 5-20k above MSRP for about the first 6-8 months which will hurt sales on a new design car. I know this because I had to pay 7k over MSRP for my 07 GT500 Cobra which really sucks. If GM could some how tell the stealerships to sell at MSRP only it will be a good selling car , but just like Ford all dealership are independently owned and will use the supply and demand theory which will **** off a whole lotta of potenional customer's. I have owned a 55 belair, 70 Chevelle, and a 87 Z28 and love all kinds of Muscle car's. But for now Ford ( Shelby Cobra) is the top dog over what's out there ( Charger, SRT etc) not counting the supercar's like the viper/corvette. In no way Im flaming the camaro, on the contrary I want to see a camaro, Chevelle , Nova, Cuda , Roadrunner, etc. which is what we have been missing for about 30 some year's now, but one thing is for sure, its a great time to relive the Muscle car era again.[sm=gears.gif]


[IMG]local://upfiles/8822/21258D54AE9745FE85B50441A0E182FC.jpg[/IMG]

 

By the time the camaro comes out the GT500 at 500hp will be out of production ( 2 year prod run) with the base msrp at 43k, the base corvette goes for 39k at 400 hp. I think that GM should also stay with the future look because of aerodynamics and a great engine (just loose a little weight) will be a wicked running car. The 6 banger Mustang base goes for 15k with 240 hp, add a S/C for 6k and you can get around 330-360hp which would be cheaper and faster then the V8 pony for 23k at 300hp. Now the V6 camaro will be running at 300hp if they can sell them at 15-20k they will be out selling ford instantly year for year, but if history is any indication Chevy was always 2-5k higher then ford wether its car's or truck's which I doubt you will see the camaro V6 at anything under 18k , then you have those greedy dealerships which will ask anywhere from 5-20k above MSRP for about the first 6-8 months which will hurt sales on a new design car. I know this because I had to pay 7k over MSRP for my 07 GT500 Cobra which really sucks. If GM could some how tell the stealerships to sell at MSRP only it will be a good selling car , but just like Ford all dealership are independently owned and will use the supply and demand theory which will **** off a whole lotta of potenional customer's. I have owned a 55 belair, 70 Chevelle, and a 87 Z28 and love all kinds of Muscle car's. But for now Ford ( Shelby Cobra) is the top dog over what's out there ( Charger, SRT etc) not counting the supercar's like the viper/corvette. In no way Im flaming the camaro, on the contrary I want to see a camaro, Chevelle , Nova, Cuda , Roadrunner, etc. which is what we have been missing for about 30 some year's now, but one thing is for sure, its a great time to relive the Muscle car era again.[sm=gears.gif]


[IMG]local://upfiles/8822/21258D54AE9745FE85B50441A0E182FC.jpg[/IMG]

 

Cobra... I was reading some of the stuff you said earlier.. But heres how i feel... Ford Mustang, ive owned a V6, I loved it... It just wasnt fast. As far as the baddest muscle car around... Id have to disagree with you. Your justification is the GT500 i assume, thats ONE car and its been made for a short period of time and from what was said before sounds like its on the way out. However the Camaro is on its way in and the Vette is still running strong (Vette has done better than its ford counterpart the Thunderbird which says alot about ford right there). The fact is that ford just doesnt make engines with enough power in them. Ford has been using the 3.8L V6 and the 4.6L V8 forever and what the 1994-1998 V6 had 150hp and the V8 had 225 while the 4th gen V6 used a 3.4L with 160 horses (smaller engine, about the same power) and then GM decided to use the 3800 which makes 200 horses and used the LT1 which made 275 stock and in 1998 (while Ford was still using the SN-95 bodys) Camaro used the LS1 making 360 horses slamming the mustang horribly. Then when mustang actually decided to beef up in 1999-2004 their V6 made 190 horses and the GT made 260 horses which is being blown away by the 3800 and the LS1 by now. Now its the Sn-197 bodies (05-present) the V6 makes 210horses (on a 4.0L, ford decided to change things up a bit) and the GT (still a 4.6L, meaning .6L makes the difference between V6 and V8..) makes 300 horses. Still not touching the Camaro (which has been out of production for a few years). Now the 2009 Camaro will probably have the 6L 400 horsepower LS2... while the base line mustang GT will still have a measly 350 horses (as stated by Ford CEO Alan Mulally).

Now im sure you will try but youcant compare the GT500 to Z28s for many reasons... one being the 4th Gen camaros are relatively old and arent a special edition like the GT500s. the GT500 (while it is a beautiful car and crazy fast) Its got a 5.4L thats been just modded like crazy.... while the Z28 is just a N/A stock base model V8. If you were to take a 4th Gen (preferably 98-02) and did the same type of mods to its LS1 that Ford did to the GT500, I would throw down my life savings sayin the GT500 wouldnt hold a prayer. Thats if you just rebuild the car head to toe like Ford and Shelby did to the GT500... but like Ford you keep the LS1 block and work around it.

Now to the reason why GM isnt putting an LS7 into the Camaro like they did the vette... simple.. if you want a car that has that much horsepower and is n/a just buy a Vette or do an expensive engine swap... The reason Camaro died in the first place is because it was basicallyturning into a Corvette... close in price and almost close in power.Ford hasnthad to worry about that tho.. the most successful sports car they ever built was the Mustang....and they donteven do that well... They have been building thesame car FOREVER and they cant make any power out of it with outhavingMr. Shelby himself rebuild the damn thing.Ford may have"started" the pony wars but GM suredidbeat em at their own game...

EDIT: Ah yes.. I forgot.. the reason why Mustangs are so cheap is because you can only sell a name for so long before people want performance.. If people want performance out of their Mustang they have to spend alot of money on expensive parts or buy a specialized vehicle... but why do that when they can get more performance from a Camaro? Yes Camaros cost most than GTs but they have more power than GTs and they dont cost as much as a Cobra... Basically my car is 14 years old and i can beat all the GTs ford has to throw at it up to 2005, and the 98-02s can take the rest... You have to decide this between a Mustang and a Camaro when it comes to cost and performance... You have Low cost, low power or Medium Cost More power. A 2008 GT Mustang with 300 horses for about$25-27kora 2002 Cam

 

I don't think we'll see the LS2 in the new Camaro, production of the LS2 has already been pretty much phased out as reported on many forums and somewhat confirmed by GM insiders, the LS3 is the more likely choice in the new Camaro.
Clyde

 

in my opinion, it was good the camaro was stopping vette sales, i mean i love the vette(not as much as camaro) but honestly, the vette should be for rich people, prefferably, older couples(45+). because, for one, hardly anyone ever does anything to the vettes, for two, i see people driving vettes all the time now, and for three, because the vette always s'pose to be a supercar/luxury car.

as for the dealr amping up price, thats true, and inevitable, but look at the GTO. they did that for all of 3months. bout it. and its coming out in winter, so thats not necesarily a bad thing. but also, remember, new supra, skyline, and all those coming back out to the states, and you KNOW the dealer's are prolly gonna double the price of those(MSRP actually being towards 50K), which is gonna drive people back to the camaro and mustang.

the GT500 and Saleen on it's way out? hmm. did they not sell that well?

 

Yeah. well then the Camaro will have the LS3 and the Mustang will still have a dinky 4.6L... Mustangs are just stuck in the stone age.. they gain very little horses without major bolt ons etc. The GT500 will probably be out of productions but all a Saleen is, is a modded Mustang.. As long as theres a demand for Mustangs with actual power there will be SVTs out there making em. Saleen, Roush, Cobra the whole nine yards... Maybe not a Shelby Cobra, but i dont see why they wouldnt just make a plain old Cobra. People who are into dragging mustangs are more likely to buy the Foxbodies (i wouldnt mind doin so myself) because they are light and you could drop a Chevy 350-454 in em and make crazy numbers. (ive seen it done as im sure many of you have). You dont see to many sn95-s197s as backyard projects like you do Camaros of all ages.

 

and there will be no ls1 like someone said, that motor died a while ago, its a gen 3 block, not gen 4 so that wont happen, period

 

Great read Spartan and I do agree with you on almost everything you wrote. The Shelby GT500 is only a 2 year production run which I hope will make it a more sought out car in the near future, Shelby is 84 years old and has some health problems (resale value) but if you throw a KB 2.6 S/C you can almost get 800hp with a tune and at 43k MSRP its a great price for those kinda of number's . Now the GT will have to go to the 5.0 hurricane motor thats already developed to be used on the Mach1 and Boss when the camaro comes out to counter for all their hp, but by 2009 I get the feeling that the retro look will be old news ,which is why I think that the camaro should stay with the futuristic look and its aerodynamics especially when your doing over 130 Mph , thats where the body style comes into effect with less drag, GM makes a great N/A motor . Just my .02

 

Yep. While ford makes great motors to moddify. As for Shelby i think down the road buying a shelby will be like buying a late 80s-mid 90s Vette