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Project Basic Bish
5 Attachment(s)
Hi all, new to the forum, but not new to the F-body. A little history, my first car was a 91 Camaro rs 3.1 converted to a carbureted 355 pushing 470whp. Had to sell it when I blew the trans (was in college and had no money to fix). 2 yrs later I bought another 91 350 5spd (trying to fill the empty void in my heart from my first love). After getting it home, realized it was idling high (timing issue). Corrected the timing and heard a knocking coming from the bottom end. Pulled the motor put new bearings in it and due to being young/dumb and on a budget. I cut corners and didn't get the crank checked. Needless to say, it ran great for about a month before the knock returned. Parked it for a year and sold it.
So here it is, 10yrs later and I bought my new project and this time it's going to be done right. No cut corners and with time and money on my side, I'm hoping to build a 1000+ whp twin turbo LS car (go from basic b**ch to a bad b**ch). I'm creating this thread to document the build and to bounce ideas off of fellow f-body owners. She's a 99 Camaro RS with a cooked 3.8. I picked her up for $600. https://camaroforums.com/forum/attac...1&d=1453429460 https://camaroforums.com/forum/attac...1&d=1453429460 Today I pulled the interior and the front end off the car, after removing the plastics in the rear hatch, I noticed damage to the rear quarter. gotta love Craigslist, "never been in an accident" he says. pretty sure thats bondo. https://camaroforums.com/forum/attac...1&d=1453429675 So I leveled the car took measurements and the frame seems to be ok. Looks like I'll be pushing forward. Tomorrow I'll get the cage ordered, last time i called its a 2 weeks turn around. https://camaroforums.com/forum/attac...1&d=1453429675 |
I hope you have deep pockets lol, 1k horsepower takes a lot of cash to get there especially starting out with a basic shell.
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Originally Posted by Socom
(Post 708125)
I hope you have deep pockets lol, 1k horsepower takes a lot of cash to get there especially starting out with a basic shell.
The car is almost free, I've already sold a lot of parts I don't need. Another, $100 and that'll cover the cost of the car. 👍 |
Originally Posted by CaptainSavage
(Post 708127)
I hear ya! I definitely don't have deep pockets, but a little over time and I'll get there. Haha
The car is almost free, I've already sold a lot of parts I don't need. Another, $100 and that'll cover the cost of the car. 👍 |
I agree with Socom, With 1000 Dependable HP there are very few parts on your drive line that will come from GM. Even buying used aftermarket parts will be pricey and may require some machine shop work to get them fitted 100%. Sure you might get a LQ9 with loose rings to dyno once to twice near a 1000 HP but it will not hold up and you have spent 7K for a few trips to the dyno.
700 HP is a lot more realistic on a budget, without a really good tuner it is still in the high risk area but you could race a whole season or get a year or two out of it on street tire. Anytime you use mass produced GM parts there are risks of a defect that will fail at +20% factory power. Just an opinion: I love 4th gen, I currently have 3 but if I was building a race car I would avoid them. They are a pain to work on. An early 3rd gen or 80s full framed RWD car would SO much easier and cheaper to build. Normally with cars like this you have the motor in and out test fitting and changing stuff. Unless you have a lift that is a huge pain in the 4th gen cause the engine comes out the bottom. Also with an older car you do not have to mess with the body electrical, your 99 has a body control module and once you pull the PCM for the motor EVERYTHING in the car stops working. AC/Heat/Wiper/Power Windows/Power door locks... everything in the dash including all the gages. All the gages will need replace (that can be very pricey) and all the other stuff need rewired. If you finish this 4th gen I would bet you will look back and see you spent 3 to 4 times the money you paid for the 4th gen body to make the 4th gen work and that is not counting the labor hours and that would all be money and work you would have not needed to do on a 3rd gen. Read some of the large projects in this section. You really have to love a 4th gen to do this type of build, again IMO doing it because you found one cheap is a big mistake. |
Originally Posted by Gorn
(Post 708132)
I agree with Socom, With 1000 Dependable HP there are very few parts on your drive line that will come from GM. Even buying used aftermarket parts will be pricey and may require some machine shop work to get them fitted 100%. Sure you might get a LQ9 with loose rings to dyno once to twice near a 1000 HP but it will not hold up and you have spent 7K for a few trips to the dyno.
700 HP is a lot more realistic on a budget, without a really good tuner it is still in the high risk area but you could race a whole season or get a year or two out of it on street tire. Anytime you use mass produced GM parts there are risks of a defect that will fail at +20% factory power. Just an opinion: I love 4th gen, I currently have 3 but if I was building a race car I would avoid them. They are a pain to work on. An early 3rd gen or 80s full framed RWD car would SO much easier and cheaper to build. Normally with cars like this you have the motor in and out test fitting and changing stuff. Unless you have a lift that is a huge pain in the 4th gen cause the engine comes out the bottom. Also with an older car you do not have to mess with the body electrical, your 99 has a body control module and once you pull the PCM for the motor EVERYTHING in the car stops working. AC/Heat/Wiper/Power Windows/Power door locks... everything in the dash including all the gages. All the gages will need replace (that can be very pricey) and all the other stuff need rewired. If you finish this 4th gen I would bet you will look back and see you spent 3 to 4 times the money you paid for the 4th gen body to make the 4th gen work and that is not counting the labor hours and that would all be money and work you would have not needed to do on a 3rd gen. Read some of the large projects in this section. You really have to love a 4th gen to do this type of build, again IMO doing it because you found one cheap is a big mistake. I've already removed the ac/heater, radio, and gauge cluster. I'm installing crank windows and manual seats to eliminate the BCM. I didn't think about the wipers though, but I'm sure there's a way around that. |
500hp is better or 400,for a street car unless your raceing it ,who needs even 700hp for the street ,unless your a street outlaw ,an they spend big bucks get hp from there cars,an I agree with gorn ,go back to 92 or older ,looking at my build ,I would have rather had a 92 or older roller like 74 to 81 ,lots more room under the hood,looking back at my build wich I relize slowing it down is better I could have had fuel injected engine in there with the same hp ,an not had to mod so much to make it work ,live an learn though ,got it now, still a work in progress ,the lsx engines are a great engine for that car though sorry if I missed an someone mentioned it already
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Originally Posted by 95 camaro 406
(Post 708140)
500hp is better or 400,for a street car unless your raceing it ,who needs even 700hp for the street ,unless your a street outlaw ,an they spend big bucks get hp from there cars,an I agree with gorn ,go back to 92 or older ,looking at my build ,I would have rather had a 92 or older roller like 74 to 81 ,lots more room under the hood,looking back at my build wich I relize slowing it down is better I could have had fuel injected engine in there with the same hp ,an not had to mod so much to make it work ,live an learn though ,got it now, still a work in progress ,the lsx engines are a great engine for that car though sorry if I missed an someone mentioned it already
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You need at least a 5 point bar to go 10.0, any faster and you will need a cage.
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Any turbo LS motor is going to run well under 10's. A 1000 HP car in a gutted chassis should hit 8.5 seconds.
9.99 1/4-mile (6.39 1/8-mile)/ 135 mph or quicker: -Roll cage is required on all vehicles at 9.99 and quicker or any vehicle running 135 mph or faster (regardless of e.t.). The roll cage must be constructed of a minimum o.d. mild steel or chrome moly tubing (moly can be a smaller o.d and is lighter but more expensive), see diagram below for specs. Roll cage must be padded anywhere the driver's helmet may contact it while in the driving position, see diagram below for specs. Roll cage must also be certified by NHRA every 3 years and have a serialized sticker affixed prior to participation. This style of cage is good til 8.50 1/4-mile times, then a funny car style cage is required. See diagram below. -Window net required (can be ribbon or mesh, no altering allowed unless done by manufacturer. 2009 NHRA rule book states mesh nets carry a manufacturer date and a 2 year expiration/re-cert, while ribbon are good forever. Check with your local track or division). -NHRA competition driver's license required, done by car designation (dragster, door car, etc). A physical, 2 NHRA licensed drivers to witness/sign your forms and a minimum of 6 runs are required. For NHRA license form click here: www.nhra.com/contacts/forms/licenseapp.pdf, for NHRA physical form click here: www.nhra.com/contacts/forms/physical01.pdf -Flexplate SFI 29.1 and shield SFI 30.1 required (no expiration dates listed, but I believe the shield is 5 years) -Protective Clothing (SFI jacket and pants with a 3.2A/5 rating, gloves and neck collar, no expiration date) -Battery cutoff (regardless or whether battery is still up front or relocated to rear of vehicle). The cutoff switch must shut down everything electrical when off; see here for pictures and a wiring diagram: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/drag-r...ct-switch.html -A full-face helmet is required with a minimum Snell K98 or M2000/SA2000 rating. Helmets last 12 years from their rating date (example a Snell 2005 would be good until 1/2017). Shield is permitted, and modifications to helmet or shield are prohibited. This rule posting is as it applies to cars like ours (closed body type). For open cars a different helmet ruling is required. -A engine diaper is required at NHRA national and divisional races, local races vary, check with your division or track. Parachutes: If car is over 150 MPH |
you could think about circle track car too ,no matter how you look at it ,if you want something for the road an strip ,your going to spend a lot money to make 99 3800 the one ,so you may want to rethink body style ,or a z28 car ,I had a chance to grab 74 that was a strip car slash street now ,was $7500,00 with fresh 383 500hp it was sweet ,wrong time for me ,could be looking at 2 times that amount for 700hp car
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I agree that this car is not an ideal car to do what I want to do, but when I decided to do a project, there were two options for me. I wanted either a 98-02 or a 67-68 Camaro. Granted a 3rd and 2nd gen are cheap and easier to work on, theyre just not what I'm interested in. And if I'm going to sink a ton of money into a car, I want it to be a car I want. I do appreciate the input, but I'm not changing my mind, no matter how frustrating and hard this project gets, I plan on pushing forward. Where there's a will (and cash), there's a way. Haha
Tomorrow morning, I'm ordering a 10pt cage. The company I'm ordering it from said its a 2week turn around. So once it comes in, I'll post some pics of the install. https://camaroforums.com/forum/attac...1&d=1454028797 https://camaroforums.com/forum/attac...1&d=1454028901 In the second photo, does anyone know what that metal box with wires going in it is behind the back seat. It's riveted to the floor, I cut the wires removing the interior harness. I'll splice them back together if it's something I need. |
Have you put together a plan? The plan is the most important part of the build. You need to lay out a realistic budget and time line and stick to it. These types of builds can get so out of hand and drag on so long. You should actual write down your goals and your time line.
Of course you will have unknown but you should be able to write down I want X engine Y turbo, backed up Z transmission, I plan on "A" rear end with "B" slicks and "C" rear suspension. It will be tuned on Joe's Dyno. Picking goals now will help design the car. All these things affect one another, Type of tires will effect what you should do to the rear and rear suspension as will the type of engine you build. A 650 hp 5500 RPM 502 would need a completely Trans/rear setup than a 650 hp 7500 RPM 327. A few years ago a friend of mine bough a hot rod, you know the fiberglass body 34 Ford without a single Ford part on it. It had a huge set of street league tire on it. On launch the wheel hopped you would not believe. Rear suspension was all wrong for the SB 383. He had a local hot rod shop build him a very solid 4 link, first pass after the rears was fixed the trans blew on and he had to tow it home. This was not a cheap hot rod but it was a car built without a plan. |
Should've bought a built roller for 4-6k that already has a cage, 9" etc already done. But hey its your project. The wires/box is fuel pump/ABS plug. Why would you cut the wires to the harness? You can unplug and remove every wire in the car without cutting.....I've done it
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Thanks Socom, The box didn't have a plug, everything else removeed without a problem. I'll, splice everything back together when it comes time. I left enough wire to work with, when it comes to that. As for finding a 4th gen built roller, they're not that easy to come by here in Delaware. I've been looking for a little over a year now, so I decided to find a cheap roller and do the work myself.
As far as a plan Gorn I'm in the process of figuring those details out. The power plant I have narrowed down to 3 options. - LS2 - LS3 - LQ9/4 (I'm leaning toward this option) All of which I've found on CL for a reasonable price. Turbos, not sure the type, size, or brand yet. I'm on the fence with this too. My dad has a supercharger that he's giving me. He's swapping it out for a different setup. Comes with all the piping and inter cooler. Just needs to be rebuilt. I'm in the process of looking in to, if its able to make the power I'm looking for. The Transmission I'd like to keep the 4L60, since it would bolt up nice and wiring for it is already there, but I've heard horror stories about it not holding up. I came across an article on super Chevy. They recommended a company that builds them to handle 1000+ hp and they run about $4900. I'll see if I can look it up, I'm sure I have it book marked. Rear is going to be a ford 9", not sure the ratio yet, I'll figure that out when I figure the trans. Tires are going to 275 or 315's on Weld RT-s's, love that style wheel and they look great on the fourth gen. Rear suspension is going to the stock torque arm setup, but with BMR, UMI, or Spohn components. All great companies, just depends which one I can get a better deal on. Front suspension will be lightened K-member new control arms and will match the company I use for the rear. Still figuring out whether I'm switching to coil overs (ride tech) or going with BMR springs and Bilstein struts. This is what I've planned so far, still got a lot more to figure out, that's for sure. |
Also, with the 10pt cage installed, would you guys still recommend frame connectors or is that overkill?
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Frame connectors mandatory. I would go a forged 370" lq4 with ls3 top end, boost of your choice, and TH400 / glide. You'll also need a drag bar in the back too.
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What is a reasonable price for an LS3?
Well with 275 street tires both the 10 point and the frame connectors will be overkill, I spin my 275's with a stock LS1. You still need to set a budget, estimated HP and you should have a goal ET. Check out Sloppy Mechanics on you tube. Then check out their website. There is a lot of good information, even detailed tech plans on their website about what LS combos work and what ones don't. If you follow one of their builds you can trailer the car up to Allentown and get Matt to test/tune it. Check out Mark's Back to Back high 7 seconds runs in a car mostly built with junk yard parts. |
Originally Posted by Gorn
(Post 708304)
What is a reasonable price for an LS3?
Well with 275 street tires both the 10 point and the frame connectors will be overkill, I spin my 275's with a stock LS1. You still need to set a budget, estimated HP and you should have a goal ET. Check out Sloppy Mechanics on you tube. Then check out their website. There is a lot of good information, even detailed tech plans on their website about what LS combos work and what ones don't. If you follow one of their builds you can trailer the car up to Allentown and get Matt to test/tune it. Check out Mark's Back to Back high 7 seconds runs in a car mostly built with junk yard parts. |
I did not know they made 275 drag radial, my bad.
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you may concider the lsx engine an the 6.0 ,theres a guy put a lot of money into ls3 still only getting a bit over 400hp to the wheels ,you may ,look at the swap a guy did with 5.3 lsx too,i agree where theres a will theres is a way is why I have a carbed 406 in my 95 ,not trying to talk you out of this body style ,I think there the best looking ones 98 to 02 ,but all 4 gens ,theres a few guys been on these for years now , though I think done right 6 months to a year to make unique hot rod is about right ,if your doing all the work your saveing money there too,will help cost
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Yeah, they'll definitely be drag radials. And Gorn, I checked out the website for sloppy mechanic. They got a lot of good stuff on there. I'll keep them in mind when I get to the engine part of the build. Thanks Socom, ordered the frame connectors with the 10pt. Figured while I'm welding in the cage might as well weld in the frame connectors too.
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Keep us posted I would love to see a 9 second budget build.
As a side note talking about rollers Wow 15k invested and no engine yet. http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/5429617212.html |
Originally Posted by Gorn
(Post 708369)
Keep us posted I would love to see a 9 second budget build.
As a side note talking about rollers Wow 15k invested and no engine yet. 1995 Camaro Z-28 (2002 Nose) - Drag/Street Project I just removed the engine and trans today |
patc have a 1000+ hp 4l60e.
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Originally Posted by craby
(Post 708449)
patc have a 1000+ hp 4l60e.
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Ive come across a ford 9inch on CL, the guys asking 250, no center section included. The ad says it came out of a 70's truck. Is this a good deal to buy and modify to fit in my Camaro? I've seen them go for 650 empty and ready to go under the 4th gen or 2000 complete. Just curious if I can do it for cheaper myself. Thanks for the feedback
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offer him $200.00 yes its a deal pretty much couse like you said you can pay more for shell,i would think so cheaper yourself though when you add the center section that's half of the $2000.00,i think it very hard to get below 1500.00 even on your own ,unless you can part it together cheap.or find someone that needs money ,I am just going go with strengthening the 10 bolt 7.5 ,for about $500.00 to handle 450hp +,they sell them set up already for the 4th gens for about $2000.00 that may be the way to go
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Originally Posted by 95 camaro 406
(Post 709448)
offer him $200.00 yes its a deal pretty much couse like you said you can pay more for shell,i would think so cheaper yourself though when you add the center section that's half of the $2000.00,i think it very hard to get below 1500.00 even on your own ,unless you can part it together cheap.or find someone that needs money ,I am just going go with strengthening the 10 bolt 7.5 ,for about $500.00 to handle 450hp +,they sell them set up already for the 4th gens for about $2000.00 that may be the way to go
Is the 10 bolt rebuild able to handle 800+ hp? I've seen a lot mixed reviews on it. |
you would need to do mods on the truck unit. its too wide for one so would have to be cut down. if you have a machine shop you could do it. all brackets would need to be removed and ones that match the stock unit welded on in the right places and at the right angles. stock 10 bolt will handle some pretty good hp, not 800, so long as the tires are not sticky,,, and you have auto trans.
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? what engine are you putting in this car
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Originally Posted by 95 camaro 406
(Post 709520)
? what engine are you putting in this car
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Originally Posted by craby
(Post 709511)
you would need to do mods on the truck unit. its too wide for one so would have to be cut down. if you have a machine shop you could do it. all brackets would need to be removed and ones that match the stock unit welded on in the right places and at the right angles. stock 10 bolt will handle some pretty good hp, not 800, so long as the tires are not sticky,,, and you have auto trans.
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thats big money your putting in this car ,are you thinking about super charger ,I know how my friend will make 2015 challenger make 1000hp ,right now its stock 610hp he will get 300hp with the super charger an few bolt ons to get near 1000hp ,but he also spent like $46,000 for the car ,an its like $7000.00 for the charger ,he likes to go fast said 150mph feels smooth ,hes due for a ticket too,an owns a restaurant so I guess that how he Affords it,pulled pork good stuff to 408 makes 6.7 L darn close to 6.8 mine is near 6.7 at 406 ci,but not close enough yours would be,seen 408 stroker ls3 all forged 650hp $10.900.00 ,is not bad ,though I am pretty sure you can build it ,that's not bad for that kinda HP
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Originally Posted by 95 camaro 406
(Post 709527)
thats big money your putting in this car ,are you thinking about super charger ,I know how my friend will make 2015 challenger make 1000hp ,right now its stock 610hp he will get 300hp with the super charger an few bolt ons to get near 1000hp ,but he also spent like $46,000 for the car ,an its like $7000.00 for the charger ,he likes to go fast said 150mph feels smooth ,hes due for a ticket too,an owns a restaurant so I guess that how he Affords it,pulled pork good stuff to 408 makes 6.7 L darn close to 6.8 mine is near 6.7 at 406 ci,but not close enough yours would be,seen 408 stroker ls3 all forged 650hp $10.900.00 ,is not bad ,though I am pretty sure you can build it ,that's not bad for that kinda HP
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Actaully I checked out that engine an for $10.900 for what you get its not a bad price ,you get all every thing ,more then I got for my turn key ,the whole belt assembley Ac starter fuel injection water pump power streeing ,only thing you don't get is the wireing harness other wise its a true turn key an for that price you get a lot ,mine was 7000.00 after all the pulleys a mock ups an trany too though,a belt assembley can cost $2000.00 alone,though I relize I could have got fuel injected engine for about the same an saved some head aches live an learn
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600 wheel is going to be difficult out of a 6.0 without high comp and expensive heads/intake.
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yes the 6.0L is 366 Ci engine so if your going with 408 6.7 L ,your boring that 6.0 out to get 620 hp ,an the one I was looking at for 10.900 with everything is 427 7.0 ,you will part an engine together for a lot more then that ,that's a project bish
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Picked up the heart for the beast. This past week. Got it disassembled and ready to drop off at the machine shop.
https://camaroforums.com/forum/attac...1&d=1462156843 |
sounds good .let us know when its back the 408 should be bad as s
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