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-   -   I feel sick, the car barely runs now... (https://camaroforums.com/forum/93-02-v6-tech-14/i-feel-sick-car-barely-runs-now-74548/)

74goatboy 06-11-2013 08:46 AM

I feel sick, the car barely runs now...
 
My son asked me to find him a nice used car while he was finishing up his technical training in the Air Force. He will be an F-22 crew chief at Langley AFB in Virginia in a couple weeks. Well I found him a nicely cared-for black 2001 V6 Camaro with 120K miles, T-tops and a really nice aftermarket sound system. I fixed a couple small items on the car and brought it to the airport for him to drive it home after his nearly 8 months away from home.

The car had been driving perfectly up to then. I did have the evap purge solenoid replaced about a week prior, but that never caused any performance issues. The trip from the airport was about 20 miles. By the time he got off the highway near our house, he said the CEL was flashing. He immediately parked it at the house and I scanned it and found one code - P0302 - cylinder 2 misfire.

It was idling very rough. I spoke with the previous owner (who bought it at 35K miles) and he said this happened once before a couple years ago and it was a coil pack. So I pick up a new one and thought that might fix it. Wrong.

I did a spark test and number 2 wire was sparking quite nicely. I still bought a high quality set of wires and plugs from NAPA and put them on. There was no change. The car barely has enough power to limp up the driveway into the garage and the exhaust smells really bad - like fireworks and eggs. I read a nice write-up on this at OBD II Code P0302 , but thought I would inquire here where all the cars are Camaro V6's.

I will try to find a fuel pressure gauge next to see if I have good pressure at the injectors, but do any of you have some wisdom to share with a dad who is feeling sick about his used car selection for his Airman son who is supposed to drive his new car from Missouri to Virginia very soon?

Cheeks 06-11-2013 09:08 AM

start with the basics, air fuel spark.

Have you tried swapping injectors/coil packs from one of the cylinders that is working? What does the spark plug look like?

If I'm you, first thing I do is swap injectors and see if your misfire moves to the other cylinder

Gorn 06-11-2013 09:52 AM

Miss fire code does not mean the spark did not fire it, it means that when the plug was suppose to fire the engine did not see an increase is speed like it did when the other cylinders fired. So basically anything that could cause a cylinder to fire weakly can cause a miss fire code. I would pull the plug and see if you can see anything going on. Replace that plug just be sure you do not have a internal crack in the plug. I would do a quick compression test while I had the pug out just to be sure.

Fuel pressure test then rotate the injector to another cylinder and see if the miss follows. Looks for vacuum leaks leading to that cylinder, If everything shows good swap in a new spark module.

Or just take it to a good mechanic and he will hook it to a scoop and tell you what is wrong with it.

74goatboy 06-11-2013 12:18 PM

I did clear the code and tried swapping the 2-5 and the 3-6 coil packs, but the code still came back P0302. I have not swapped injectors yet. The plug on cylinder 2 was noticeably fuel fouled but the spark plug checking tool showed a hot consistent spark on no. 2 wire.

74goatboy 06-11-2013 12:26 PM

Thanks for the good advise. I will do a compression check too so I can rule out valve/ring concerns. I may have to concede eventually and take it to a shop; but I have been doing all my own diagnostics and repair since before OBD I, so it's a bit of a kick to my pride. And I admit I am a bit frugal too (but NOT cheap).

nathanh 06-11-2013 01:00 PM

Ok, I didn't go threw what all was said, but I was having this same problem happen to me on and off. After taking it to several shops and no problem saw found, I decided to investigate myself. After checking my spark plug wires, I found they were laying right on the manifold! So I replaced the wire that had melted. Once that was done I just moved my wires around to where they aren't laying on the manifold no more with a couple of properly places zip ties. If you want to see how it was done let me know

74goatboy 06-11-2013 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by nathanh (Post 672726)
Ok, I didn't go threw what all was said, but I was having this same problem happen to me on and off. After taking it to several shops and no problem saw found, I decided to investigate myself. After checking my spark plug wires, I found they were laying right on the manifold! So I replaced the wire that had melted. Once that was done I just moved my wires around to where they aren't laying on the manifold no more with a couple of properly places zip ties. If you want to see how it was done let me know


Thanks Nathan. I used all the factory split loom, wire holders and routing to make sure that didn't happen.

craby 06-11-2013 01:20 PM

done just about everything may as well pick up some good plugs and a fuel filter. not so sure of good ones for 3.8 but get some good ones, even the 3.8 can be a pain to change plugs so the longer they last the better. could send injectors in and have em cleaned and flow tested. not a bad idea after 80 or 100k miles.

Massey 06-11-2013 06:03 PM

I used ACD Iridium plugs when I put my new engine in my 99 V6 and they preformed great. I also like to use Lucas Fuel System cleaner to keep my pintles lubed and fuel system clean. I put in about 6oz every oil change and it works great. If you think things may be dirty then put 6oz or so in every tank full. The 32oz bottle costs 2x what the 5 oz bottle does and it is 6x the ammount. You may also consider buying one of the single treatment bottles as a measuring bottle for your next time (I do this too). Sounds like you got the problem narrowed down to a bad plug or bad/dirty injector.

Oh and if you can make sure you lisence the car in your home state, VA loves to tax the pi$$ our of vehicles and they also make you do a BS yearly inspection before you can renew your tabs. This inspection is not very expensive but they check everything and 1 bulb being out can fail you (even if there are multiple bulbs for the same light). It is a pain trust me. When I was stationed there I kept my HoR as WA (no state income tax) and registered my vehicles to my Dad's address.

Massey

74goatboy 06-11-2013 06:48 PM

Thanks everyone, but I just found out some very bad news. 0 psi on the cylinder 2 compression check. (150 psi on cylinder 4). I'm guessing a broken valve spring is not allowing one of the valves to seat. Either way, I see MANY hours of wrenching, cussing and crying coming my way. How incredibly lucky for the guy who sold it to me!!

Gorn 06-11-2013 06:59 PM

No way anyone could foresee that coming. I did see this once on a 95 3800. All of a sudden no compression one cylinder. Turned out to be a broken valve spring. It cost me $12 to fix.

Funny part is I left the car sit for 3 months because I thought the zero compression was going to be a big job. Once I started working on it, It took 45 minutes and run to the parts store and 1/2 hour once I got back and she was fixed.

nathanh 06-11-2013 09:22 PM


Originally Posted by 74goatboy (Post 672729)
Thanks Nathan. I used all the factory split loom, wire holders and routing to make sure that didn't happen.

Tomorrow I will take pictures while I am at work and upload them for you to see how I re routed them. But just have them where they won't be touching the manifold

Everett#2390 06-12-2013 05:47 AM


Originally Posted by 74goatboy (Post 672774)
Thanks everyone, but I just found out some very bad news. 0 psi on the cylinder 2 compression check. (150 psi on cylinder 4).

A quick check of compression, insert shop air into the cylinder and listen to either the intake/throttle body for intake leak, and tailpipe for exhaust leak.

Most common problem would be a burnt exhaust valve. But, an erractic running engine would so this fault.

74goatboy 06-13-2013 12:52 PM

Well, one night of work down, that wasn't too bad. The old days were pretty nice - you could just unscrew four small bolts and you had the valve cover off. On this car, you have to drain the cooling system and remove such items as the alternator, drive belt and tensioner, the rear engine lifting bracket (I could have strangled the guy who designed that!), the fuel rail and several generator brackets. I still don't have the cover off yet. I am so hoping that I find a broken valve spring!! If it's a burnt valve the job just gets about 3 times more involved.

Gorn 06-13-2013 01:36 PM

You did grab the GM shop manual?

74goatboy 06-13-2013 03:50 PM


Originally Posted by Gorn (Post 672980)
You did grab the GM shop manual?

Yes, followed it to the letter. Probably about 3.5 hours into repair so far. GREAT NEWS! My son just got the cover off and voila, it is indeed a broken valve spring. I never thought I would be so glad to have one, but I am.:icon_dance-tap:

Gorn 06-13-2013 04:11 PM

Keep a magnet close, don't drop the keepers!. You have the "on car" spring compressor ?

craby 06-13-2013 04:38 PM

so lucky its number 2.

74goatboy 06-13-2013 05:07 PM


Originally Posted by craby (Post 673000)
so lucky its number 2.

YES. That is the best possible cylinder to have this happen to. Very unfortunate to happen on the first tank of gas, but like the wise man says, "it could have been worse". Like on my son's 14 hour drive to Virginia.

Gorn 06-13-2013 09:03 PM

This is pretty rare to happen. I saw it once 10 years ago and I can not remember anyone ever coming here an asking about a broken spring. I have been here since 09. It is not the normal life of a spring. They tend to get weak and float at higher RPM. Broken springs normally only happen when people go nuts with hi lift cams.

74goatboy 06-18-2013 10:10 AM

Repair is done and engine idles as smooth as a sewing machine. $6.50 for a new spring. Probably about 8 hours of total time into the job. Thanks for all the good advice and information everyone! Of course my wife and I are a little nervous about the rest of the valve springs now.

craby 06-18-2013 10:29 AM

i think you need to go out and buy a lotto ticket. very lucky. odds of another spring being faulty is pretty big. odds of it happing to you even more so.

Gorn 06-18-2013 11:30 AM

The 3800 I did ran aleast 30K with no issues after. It was traded in at that point. Like I said before valve spring rarely break. It has to be like a 1 in a million process/metallurgical defect. The chances of 2 in one car would be insane.

74goatboy 06-18-2013 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by Gorn (Post 672980)
You did grab the GM shop manual?

I just realized the PDF's I downloaded do not contain some of chapter 8 and all of chapter 9 and the index. Now I can't find my way back to the link to download them. I think I found it here on the forum... Help?:icon_frown:

Camaro 69 06-18-2013 02:07 PM

https://camaroforums.com/forum/camar...d-views-73894/

Gorn 06-18-2013 04:08 PM

Some of the manual are multi downloads. Make sure you get them all.

74goatboy 06-18-2013 05:03 PM


Originally Posted by Camaro 69 (Post 673519)

Thank you, thank you!


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