have money, want to go faster...
Ninja Administrator
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,172
From: Potato
RE: have money, want to go faster...
here is how i know something is strange, his hp starts to fall gradually after mid range rpm...... i can crunch numbers when i get home from work, but hp is a calculation of torque. hp=torque*rpm/5252. i wish that graph was in rpm so i could do this right but i would assume it goes from like 2500 to 6000rpm. his peak is around 4000...... thats not right. that means he is having a monumental drop in engine torque at those rpm to the extent that I would worry he floating all his valves or runing an afr 7>x>20 (i wrote that right btw, just htink abou it, its an either/or)
The Jazz Man
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,237
From: St. Helens, Oregon
ROTM Winner's Club
RE: have money, want to go faster...
pre dyno/pre lt install:
coated pacesetters,
3in i/o high flow cat (magnaflow/carsound)
custom made S (2 45* mandrel bends, less of an "S", more direct flow to I pipe)
3in I pipe,
3in qtp elect cutout,
3in over axle, mandrel bent,
3in dyno max (3in i/o, single out)
single 3in tail in same location/style as stock (tucked up under/behind drvs side rear wheel)
^^^^
this system flowed better than any of the other 4 i have tried (per dynos/track times)
EDIT: THIS SYSTEM WAS 1YR OLD, pacesetters were 4mo old.
current:
FFF long tubes
,
custom one off Y pipe (2.5in),
delete cat,
3in I, (reused most of the previous I),
3in qtp elect cutout,
3in over axle mandrel bent,
3in i/o dynomax,
3in tail, same as above.
coated pacesetters,
3in i/o high flow cat (magnaflow/carsound)
custom made S (2 45* mandrel bends, less of an "S", more direct flow to I pipe)
3in I pipe,
3in qtp elect cutout,
3in over axle, mandrel bent,
3in dyno max (3in i/o, single out)
single 3in tail in same location/style as stock (tucked up under/behind drvs side rear wheel)
^^^^
this system flowed better than any of the other 4 i have tried (per dynos/track times)
EDIT: THIS SYSTEM WAS 1YR OLD, pacesetters were 4mo old.
current:
FFF long tubes
,custom one off Y pipe (2.5in),
delete cat,
3in I, (reused most of the previous I),
3in qtp elect cutout,
3in over axle mandrel bent,
3in i/o dynomax,
3in tail, same as above.
Here are the charts guys....
Baseline, cutout closed:
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno1.JPG
Baseline, cutout open:
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno2.JPG
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno3.JPG
LT's cutout closed:
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno7.JPG
Next is an overlay of the first run with the LT's over the baseline, with cutout closed.
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno4.JPG
You can see gains between 10-20 rw everywhere in the RPM range.
next is the run with cutout open overlayed.
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno5.JPG
here it is by itself, LT cutout open:
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno6.JPG
To confirm, the car was not retuned after the swap. It was the same dyno one day apart, AFR on the baseline dynos was 12.7 and with the LT's it was in the 11s, so Dan will still tune out some HP from the headers. Another thing you can see is that the HP peak shifted down a bit so more area under the curve.
Baseline, cutout closed:
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno1.JPG
Baseline, cutout open:
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno2.JPG
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno3.JPG
LT's cutout closed:
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno7.JPG
Next is an overlay of the first run with the LT's over the baseline, with cutout closed.
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno4.JPG
You can see gains between 10-20 rw everywhere in the RPM range.
next is the run with cutout open overlayed.
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno5.JPG
here it is by itself, LT cutout open:
http://www.force-fed-fabrications.co...T/Dandyno6.JPG
To confirm, the car was not retuned after the swap. It was the same dyno one day apart, AFR on the baseline dynos was 12.7 and with the LT's it was in the 11s, so Dan will still tune out some HP from the headers. Another thing you can see is that the HP peak shifted down a bit so more area under the curve.
Ninja Administrator
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,172
From: Potato
RE: have money, want to go faster...
dude...... i just want u to think about this a minute
his baseline cutout closed and LTs cutout closed has a difference of 8hp.....
from the info i am hearing, he didnt change anything but the headers and the whether or not the cutout was open in any of these runs. even in the manifold to header overlay, the hp peak builds exactly the same way.
now, he changes nothing other than the day he is at the dyno, he gains 60rwhp and the curve shifts downfield in the rpmalmost 50% AND starts to drop slowly in what SHOULD be the peak hp rpm range for a car like that. there are no doubt some *****in cars on FTv6, but im a little disappointed people accepted that graph........ like i said, if i was the shop operator i would have recalibrated and tried again
his baseline cutout closed and LTs cutout closed has a difference of 8hp.....
from the info i am hearing, he didnt change anything but the headers and the whether or not the cutout was open in any of these runs. even in the manifold to header overlay, the hp peak builds exactly the same way.
now, he changes nothing other than the day he is at the dyno, he gains 60rwhp and the curve shifts downfield in the rpmalmost 50% AND starts to drop slowly in what SHOULD be the peak hp rpm range for a car like that. there are no doubt some *****in cars on FTv6, but im a little disappointed people accepted that graph........ like i said, if i was the shop operator i would have recalibrated and tried again
The Jazz Man
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,237
From: St. Helens, Oregon
ROTM Winner's Club
RE: have money, want to go faster...
That's over pacesetter headers. He didn't run log mani's then LT's. They did more dyno runs also, and got similar numbers. I've just got better things to do right now than argue about headers.
Ninja Administrator
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,172
From: Potato
RE: have money, want to go faster...
either way, there is still no modding between the 214hp run and the 268hp run that i can see. = bs
i can think of other reasons why we shouldnt trust this as well.... 268hp is lt1 range. if the v6 was getting these several of our v6 members here should be seeing low 14s out of their bolton setups but they are not.
the graph he posts even shows a 5-10hp difference across the spectrum, but he says 10-20...... like i said, im disappointed it was just accepted and not questioned......
i can think of other reasons why we shouldnt trust this as well.... 268hp is lt1 range. if the v6 was getting these several of our v6 members here should be seeing low 14s out of their bolton setups but they are not.
the graph he posts even shows a 5-10hp difference across the spectrum, but he says 10-20...... like i said, im disappointed it was just accepted and not questioned......
The Jazz Man
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,237
From: St. Helens, Oregon
ROTM Winner's Club
RE: have money, want to go faster...
It was, and I'm trying to piece together info. That's such a big thread to go through
I'm still finding more info as I go
pull 5: 268hp at 95mph...checking the log:
5100rpm = 95mph = 276.6tq...
250h at 74mph:
4450rpm = 74mph = 295tq dbl
5100rpm = 95mph = 276.6tq...
250h at 74mph:
4450rpm = 74mph = 295tq dbl
As 97rs4life put it already, Dan's car is a H/C car. Stock internal cars will not see the same gains dan did. Also, the biggest gain came from an open cutout, Dan that thing sure does sound awesome with the cutout open.
This test we did shows a couple of things.
H/C cars: the exhaust appears to be chocking out HP/TQ. Dan's car falls right in line with the highest dynoed N/A (Lance's) which was the upper 270's (HP wise). with a decent H/C setup you'll definitely want to upgrade your exhaust system and even more so, put a cutout on the car. The Nitrous run we did also falls right in line with the 268 HP run, 268+75shot= 343 and Dan's car made 331 with some KR.
We choose Dan for this test because we know he'll be at the track the first chance he gets.
Dan, Tiago and I both want to thank you for coming down to Houston and letting us molest your baby.
This test we did shows a couple of things.
H/C cars: the exhaust appears to be chocking out HP/TQ. Dan's car falls right in line with the highest dynoed N/A (Lance's) which was the upper 270's (HP wise). with a decent H/C setup you'll definitely want to upgrade your exhaust system and even more so, put a cutout on the car. The Nitrous run we did also falls right in line with the 268 HP run, 268+75shot= 343 and Dan's car made 331 with some KR.
We choose Dan for this test because we know he'll be at the track the first chance he gets.
Dan, Tiago and I both want to thank you for coming down to Houston and letting us molest your baby.
Guys, maybe we should re-iterate this all in a single post to make it clear.
Do I believe you will gain 50 rwhp by swapping to LT's from the shorties? NO.
We are all unsure why the car was low on hp on the pre dynos. But at the same time the cutout closed numbers on the second day still fall inline with the prior numbers which is ....well mind boggling.
If I had to state what kind of gains to shoot for realistically from shorties to LT's, I would tell you to look at chart number 4. That is realistic, and falls inline with what Dan's previous results are vs the new results.
Dan's previous results with perfect tune: 253 rw
Now it made 268 rw untuned.
That is realistic.
Do I believe you will gain 50 rwhp by swapping to LT's from the shorties? NO.
We are all unsure why the car was low on hp on the pre dynos. But at the same time the cutout closed numbers on the second day still fall inline with the prior numbers which is ....well mind boggling.
If I had to state what kind of gains to shoot for realistically from shorties to LT's, I would tell you to look at chart number 4. That is realistic, and falls inline with what Dan's previous results are vs the new results.
Dan's previous results with perfect tune: 253 rw
Now it made 268 rw untuned.
That is realistic.
plain and simple.
untuned long tube headers out perform tuned pacesetters hands down.
no maybe's,
no doubts,
there are reasons why FFF wanted to do the testing they did (actually just bolting on thier headers) to verify thier suspicions.
will a true long tube header out perform the standard shorties.
they do.
results have been posted.
i'll try and hit the track as soon as possible to see how this relates to track times.
would i do it again. YES.
im my personal opinion/experience are they worth it. YES.
do i feel the support and concious effort by FFF was true/honest. YES.
untuned long tube headers out perform tuned pacesetters hands down.
no maybe's,
no doubts,
there are reasons why FFF wanted to do the testing they did (actually just bolting on thier headers) to verify thier suspicions.
will a true long tube header out perform the standard shorties.
they do.
results have been posted.
i'll try and hit the track as soon as possible to see how this relates to track times.
would i do it again. YES.
im my personal opinion/experience are they worth it. YES.
do i feel the support and concious effort by FFF was true/honest. YES.
remember, its a total custom job.
removable if i choose for track runs.
and the ability to leave it in place and still be able to remove the transmission.
this was a true headache for FFF.
the actual LT install was something like an 1.5-2hrs including the removal of my pacesetters.
the Y was several hours, both friday night and saturday.
actually almost lost the dyno availability due to trying to fit the Y to make it the way i needed.
most will not need a Y set up like this, but i am constantly pulling the trans/verters out of this car. (i can have the trans/verter out in 45min from the time i drive it into the garage)
off topic:
i've had freaky dyno numbers before also (including the before lt pulls), really cant explain why.
the peaks/valleys shown on the graphs on the entrance to the pulls are usually caused by the car dwn shifting into 2nd gr when hitting full throttle...disadvantage of auto cars.
now i've been asked why my pwr curve is so flat.
this package (h/c/intakes) always had a flat pwr curve, on every dyno pull ive ever done.
i'll try and find some old pulls and post them when i get home tonight for comparison.
i'm also seeing that my 3in catback is more restrictive than i originally thought.
no wonder this car runs a ton better at the track with the cutout open.
last note:
there's always more in the tune than u think, it just depends how close to the ragged edge you want to run.
removable if i choose for track runs.
and the ability to leave it in place and still be able to remove the transmission.
this was a true headache for FFF.
the actual LT install was something like an 1.5-2hrs including the removal of my pacesetters.
the Y was several hours, both friday night and saturday.
actually almost lost the dyno availability due to trying to fit the Y to make it the way i needed.
most will not need a Y set up like this, but i am constantly pulling the trans/verters out of this car. (i can have the trans/verter out in 45min from the time i drive it into the garage)
off topic:
i've had freaky dyno numbers before also (including the before lt pulls), really cant explain why.
the peaks/valleys shown on the graphs on the entrance to the pulls are usually caused by the car dwn shifting into 2nd gr when hitting full throttle...disadvantage of auto cars.
now i've been asked why my pwr curve is so flat.
this package (h/c/intakes) always had a flat pwr curve, on every dyno pull ive ever done.
i'll try and find some old pulls and post them when i get home tonight for comparison.
i'm also seeing that my 3in catback is more restrictive than i originally thought.
no wonder this car runs a ton better at the track with the cutout open.
last note:
there's always more in the tune than u think, it just depends how close to the ragged edge you want to run.
The Jazz Man
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,237
From: St. Helens, Oregon
ROTM Winner's Club
RE: have money, want to go faster...
Sounds like the LT numbers are right, not high. It's the pacesetter numbers that aren't accurate. I think he dyno'ed 253 max with the pacesetters, and bolting the LT's on gave him 268
