the book has the metal plate in it too .
does this add any value to the car ??
the plate is hooked in the book backwords ( like it should be I think )
makes it hard to read.
----
oopps.. meant to quote
camaro 69
on the protecto

 

is there a dif between numbers correct & matching numbers ??
I have had the motor for 20 years and just got the camaro a couple years back, so was just thinking about the combo .the motor in the car is just fine for now.

 

Been there, said that:

 

Your car has a Vin number on it. The motor and trans both have part of the vin number on them. If you put the a motor from a 68 Camaro in your car it would be "Numbers correct" meaning it like the would have come from the factory with all the correct parts but number matching means all the Vin partial V and the cars Vin match up. The is only one motor ever made that would make your car "Numbers matching".

"Numbers Correct" is something that is faily recent since the price of number matching cars has gotten insane. Its for people that want a Number matching look. These cars are fine for local car show a Cruise but would never work in a scored type car show.

My 67 RS/SS have a built 69 350 in it, its real strong but not correct the rest of the car is original and number matching. I have no intension of selling it, ever but if I could find proof that numbers correct would add value to it it would be all I needed to justify doing it. I have yet to find any proof.

It is agains the law to tamper with a cars Vin number but to the best of my knowledge is it not against the law to add to take away numbers to a pc part of the car. You would be surpised how many upper end show cars where made to be matching numbers much later in life. This is why most collectors want a car history traceable through past owners.

One place I worked used to service one man collection. In 1989 he had a 57 chevy convertible duel 4 barrel restored and shipped to us to review before he drove. He bought the before pictures and it was just a shell sitting in the desert. 80K later its a all numbers matching show car. When I asked how that happened, he said the old GM Vin stamp press was salvaged and up and running. Heck I would have no idea why anyone would keeped the title for the shell that long.

I do not think it is illegal to make a car number match it could be concidered fraud to sell it if you do not inform the next buyer. I would even make sure they signed something so three buyers later they can not come after you because you made it look that way.

 

Since when is VIN tampering not illegal?
Who is going to go through all the trouble and cost to have their block milled down and re-stamped (to look absolutely correct), to have the VIN match the car? Somebody who wants to turn their $10k plain-jane car into a $50k plus collectible, that's who. Again, it's VIN tampering, whether we're talking the tag on the car, or the numbers on the engine. With a car that's been counterfeited like that, somebody down the line is going to get ripped off. Greed can easily overtake morals when big money is on the line. "Hey, the car's been getting away with appearing like the real deal at judged shows for 20 years, who's going to know it's not at this point"?

 

I do not think changing the "Partial" Vin located on a part of a car is illegal. Vin number tampering would be changing any full Vin number located on the body shell. For cars the main Body sell is concidered the car and the rest are just parts.

Decking blocks and removing those number is very common for repair purposes. Installing a used motor would be tampering with the Vin? Back in tech school the teachers where very clear that body Vin number tampering will land you in jail. There is a pretty detailed process for repairing or replacing a Body Vin number here in PA that requires picture and a lot of paper work. It was such a pain we always tried to salvage that area so we did not have to touch it. I have never heard any word that the partial Vin on a part was used for anything other then car shows.

I am not a layer but I have worked as a Gun manufacture and you touch the lower receiver serial number and you can go to jail. Most manufacturer put the same serial number on many of the larger parts. So number matching is also a gun thing but there is no legal reason I can not make any gun part (other then the lower receiver) with or without any serial number. I can make and sell every single part, except the lower receiver, of a AR15 with any serial number you want on it and ship to you UPS. I can not imagine that cars built in the 60's had stricter laws then guns built today.

 

Try telling an unsuspecting guy who pays big bucks for a collectible "numbers matching" car, when he later finds out his car is a convincingly made counterfeit that's worth one tenth what he paid, that his engine is "only a part" and the authenticity of the numbers on it don't matter. No, simply milling off the numbers, or installing a different motor isn't tampering with a VIN, I said milling off and re-stamping is tampering. Doing that is with the intent to create a "counterfeit", nothing more. Doesn't matter what your own motive is. Definition of counterfeit: To make a copy of, usually with the intent to defraud, Made in imitation of what is genuine with the intent to defraud.
Take the case of the guy who didn't get what he thought he was paying for. What happens next is he gets a good lawyer because he just got ripped off. And with the willing assistance of the state, the prosecuting attorney traces the car's ownership back to you. All the way along, the previous owners after you say "I don't know, that's how it was when I bought it". Now you have the luxury of trying to explain to the judge why you knowingly created a counterfeit car, but your intentions were noble as you only did it to impress other people into thinking it was the real thing. Oh, and remember the guy you sold the car to, with the piece of paper that said the car was a recreation? He "never saw it", that was a fabrication, and your copy turned up missing after all these 20 some years that have gone by.
Moral of the story, don't re-stamp an engine's VIN to try to make a car what it no longer is, original.

 

Intent is one of the things a DA must prove in a case like this. By having the person you sold it too sign something would be proof you did not intent to defraud but the fact you made something in itself does not prove the intent to defraud. Heck even the goverment re-issues coins that where valuble because people want them and 30 years later they are sold as the real thing at a flee market to some unknowing person, does that mean the goverment commited fraud? What about all the other things faked or reproduced down to the finest detail including numbers? All those manufatures and retail sales places responsible for what someone else does with it after they sell it?

Buyer beware, This is why collectors want history. it is a lot easier to fake metal and paper then it is a history that can be confirmed.

Now after saying all that I still have a car in the garage that would double in value if it had the number matching motor in it and as a manufacturing engineer I have everything I need to make all the changes myself and I have no intent on ever doing it. But returning it to close to orginal might be fun. The only reason I posted in the thread is because I am looking for a little justifcation to make my car Numbers correct. I know it is my car but I am a cheap man and I just need that little "it will make it worth 5K more and only cost 4K" to push me over the edge. I am going to have to pull the motor to replace the rear main so I will need to decide sometime this year.

 

I know what you're saying too. Your intent is one thing, my main point is you have no control over what someone else does once you sell it. And "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't always apply, especially if all the other fingers point back to you. Sometimes circumstantial evidence is enough to bury someone. Heck, even the person buying the car from you could have the intentions from the start to resell it right away and scam someone. But really, what would be the point of VIN stamping your engine, for your own sake? I know what my car is and what it isn't, as far as originality. The only reason to re-stamp is to fool someone else, I can't fool myself.
As far as will a casting/date "numbers correct" engine make a difference in value? Maybe a little bit, as it adds to the vintage originality of the car. Almost like, that engine could have been replaced "back in the day". Might add a little bit to the cool factor, but nothing like a matching partial VIN. So close, but still no cigar!

 

Here's a couple of excerpts from CA. This would be enough for me to not even think about it.

10802. Any person who knowingly alters, counterfeits, defaces,
destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates, or removes
vehicle identification numbers, with the intent to misrepresent the
identity or prevent the identification of motor vehicles or motor
vehicle parts, for the purpose of sale, transfer, import, or export,
is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction, shall be punished
by imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three
years, or by a fine of not more than twenty-five thousand dollars
($25,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or by up to one year
in the county jail, or by a fine of not more than one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.




10803. (a) Any person who buys with the intent to resell, disposes
of, sells, or transfers, more than one motor vehicle or parts from
more than one motor vehicle, with the knowledge that the vehicle
identification numbers of the motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts
have been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised,
falsified, forged, obliterated, or removed for the purpose of
misrepresenting the identity or preventing the identification of the
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts, is guilty of a public offense
and, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison for two, four, or six years, or by a fine of not more than
sixty thousand dollars ($60,000), or by both the fine and
imprisonment, or by up to one year in the county jail, or by a fine
of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine
and imprisonment.
(b) Any person who possesses, for the purpose of sale, transfer,
import, or export, more than one motor vehicle or parts from more
than one motor vehicle, with the knowledge that the vehicle
identification numbers of the motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts
have been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised,
falsified, forged, obliterated, or removed for the purpose of
misrepresenting the identity or preventing the identification of the
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts, is guilty of a public offense
and, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison for 16 months, or two or three years, or by a fine of not more
than thirty thousand dollars ($30,000), or by both the fine and
imprisonment, or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one
year or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) or
by both the fine and imprisonment.