Hey all,


As ive been looking at 69 Z28's and their 302 small blocks.


Were these motors seen as premium at the time compared to say the 396 of the SS?


If its not numbers matching or not trying to be a period correct car, can someone explain why people would still put 302's in?


454 big block it is haha

 

I had a 302, and a 500hp 408 (396 x 60). If you like a high winding motor, the 302 is a good choice. The one I had had the off-road solid cam in it and down low in the RPM range, it was deader than a door nail, but above 6000 RPM, hold on. The motor would scream and it was a lot of fun. I had a four speed hooked up to mine with 4.10 gears.


Now if you like torque, definitely a big block is the way to go. There is just a feeling of power when you kick the gas pedal.


I'm currently working on a 496 right now, but still, some of my favorite times where when I had my 68 with the 302/ 4 speed. That little motor just kept asking to be beaten...LOL

 

The MO302 & DZ302 was the CID when RPO Z28 was selected.
This model/engine CID was to satisfy SCCA rules of OEM producing a min of 500 available to the public and to meet the 305 CID limit.

When the buyer checked the option box Z28 on the order form, this 302 CID was part of the package, along with four leaf rear springs, stiffer front springs, 12-bolt w/3.73, 15 inch wheels, Muncie 4-spd, full size spare, because it had a limited slip differential, and Z/28 emblems.
The cowl hood, stripes, spoilers, and everything else above a base model, were optional, at least for '67 & '68, and no A/C could be selected.

With SS pkg, one could get either a 350 or 396, manual or auto. and could have A/C.

 

In laymen's terms the 302 is a factory designed race engine. It is road and track engine, meaning the focus was on weight to HP ratio. As a daily driver they kind of sucked. Trying to drive a 302 slow was skill that took practice. They hated starting cold and stalled very easily at low RPMs. In the 70's the 302's were like hot potato's. Seems like everyone owned one for about a years then got rid of them. Its funny, I talked to a lot of older guys the owned them and they remember the car was insanely fast but can never remember why they sold them. Everyone always think they want the fastest car possible until they realize the cost. The main cost was comfort.

The big blocks on the other had did not care about weight and where large enough to be ok on the slow drives and monster in the 1/4 mile.
Chevy knew most of the big block where going to be driven daily and built them so people would not hate them.

Modern fuel injection and ignition systems have made it so you no longer have to choose between lots of power or comfort but back in the day it was either or.

I do find it funny that there are people that worship the 302 like it is some ultimate design. I am sure the engineers find that funny also. The 302 was the best design they could do with the existing platform and the size limits. If the size limit would have been 330 cu/in then we would be talking about a 327 if it was 360 we would be talking about a 355. The GM engineer always knew how to build an engine for the most power, reality was very few people actually wanted that. In fact with modern race engine design, you put a cubic inch limit on the engine and most race teams will end up with an on size design. The old saying still applies "There is no replacement for displacement." at least when you are talk NA engines

 

Its all depends on what you want to do with the car,The 302 small block was designed for Trans Am road racing.And there are other SCCA classes that a 350 was legal to run.You can see those cars today at the Vintage Races.The 396 and other big blocks were designed for NASCAR and drag racing ,Then you have the COPO cars as wheel.Especially the ZL-1 Aluminum Can-Am road racing engine in a street car for NHRA drag racing,So Chevrolet had a variety of engines for what ever type of racing you prefered.

 

Size limit on 60's SCCA trans Am race was 5.0 liter max race. GM and ford both ran 302's while dodge de-stroked its 340 back to a 305. Why else would the big 3 run some of the smallest V8's they produced at the time? This is very well documented on the web.

I read an article, If I remember right Ford wanted Carol Shelby to get into the Trans-Am races. He already knew the for ford 302 so he went to a GM dealership and ordered all the parts to build a GM 302. He built it like any race team would and dyno'ed it. He said he hit 490hp and was sure there was some left in it. He then told ford no thank you. I believe his comment was the 302 heads could not be made to make enough power,,,, This is why ford came up with the 302 Boss engine which was a 302 Windsor block with Cleveland heads


Another interesting Trans-Am fact. The Z28 was never named. The chevy marketing department was late delivering the name for the Camaro designed to racers. First they where in a argument with Pontiac because chevy wanted the it the Camaro Trans-am. Then there was internal arguments over the name. By the time it went to its first race the car still did not have a name. It won its first race. The announcer needed to know the name, the only thing the team had was the RPO code. By the next Monday people wanted the Z28 and there was no changing the name. For those that don't know RPO codes are just option codes. Z27 is the code for the SS. So the Z28 was just the next code after Z27 it was never meant to be a name. This is why none of the 602 1967 Z28s had any badges. Z28 was truly luck of the draw.

 

Interesting stuff gorn .the 69 z28 302 cars were only a few steps behind the copo 427 cars ,the 302 was rated at 290hp, becouse the transam raceing class wanted the engine hp to match to cubic inches or below the CI ,was actually 350hp an very popular car ,the copo 427 even more popular with 425 hp an 430 hp the rs ss cars could be had with a 350 with 255hp an 300hp or a 396 with hp from 325 to 375 ,the 427 engine of today is a great choise for no numbers matching engines ,an i would love to have one in a 2002 ss car ,i hear the right turbo or super charger combo can make 900 to 1000 hp for the track an street ,not cheap though, some take like a 1969 camaro an make them to match the copo cars called the copo clone with a 427 under the hood ,an some take an put all the new technology in them to from brakes to fuel injection to an air ride an upgraded stereo systems so on, a note on the boss 302 engines in the 1980s i think we all know as for the mustang an now camaro could not compare except mabey the Iroc 350,an police forces all over the country used them as there chase cars there still out there today 302 was a huge thing in the 80s too you had a boss 302 you were the boss ,an they are starting to hold some value too,then they came back with the 302 mustang resently ford put there new 302 up to an ls3 engine ,the ls3 engine came out on top ,chevy rocks,though the 302 is no slouch ,in the 93- 02 chevy camaro made up for it by comeing out with better cars with more hp out classing the mustang ,makeing them more desirable

 

Another Classic Camaro fact. The 350 engine was designed for the for the Camaro SS. 1967 the first 350 and was only available in the SS Camaro. The engineers did not plan on putting the big block in the Camaro until much later in the project. First Camaro shipped in September of 66, first big block was the end of January 67. First big block had a few issues right out of the gate do to a lack of testing. Wheel hop and breaking motor mount are things that should have shown up in testing.

67-68 SS 350 are L48 at 295 hp the 1969 L48 was rated at 300 hp. All SS Camaro small blocks I am aware of are L48's I am not aware of a 255 hp configuration. Once the 350 went mainstream it could be found in almost any HP even down to a 160 hp 2 barrels. IMO the only reason GM rated the 302 at 290 hp was so it showed right under the SS 350. Marketing was trying to sell the more driver friendly SS. I think they took the 302 HP rating a lower RPM. The 302 was capable of 7000 RPMs.

4th gen Camaro more desirable then a Mustang? You know they stopped making the Camaro because they could not sell them? At one point the 4th gen factory was running a single shifts. GM built a great sports car but Ford build a pony car. IMO the Camaro was a much better engineered car, GM just forgot what they where building and who they were building it for and killed off a car line.

 

so i woulds guess to say there are many more 396 cars then the 350,i seen an the 350 with 300hp was not far off the 396 with 325hp ,wich probley makes the 350 car more sought after ,or worth more then 396 cars ,kinda like the 302 cars mabey ,i been learning alot about the gen one car this year interesting stuff

 

Big block car are worth about 25%-50% more then the small block SS car. If you walked in a dealer and said I want a SS you got a 350. You had to check the box that said I want to spend even more money and get the big block. I think there was about 36,000 SS sold in the 67 model year and 29,000 of those where small block. I have said it many times. There are more numbers machining big block 67 Camaros today then there was in 1970. It is amazing how many of those big block cars that were designed and used at the drag track still have then original engine in them considering most racers only got about 2 seasons out of a stock motor. In case it did not come through that is sarcasm. Heck even if you assume 1/2 the car cars truly survived that is only 3500 big block car. I would bet more then that passed through ebay in 2007 before the crash. Once they got valuable they started coming out of the wood work.